Denied the Experience of Youth

March 13, 2010

by Brian Leubitz

I didn’t come out until I was in my mid-twenties. So, I didn’t exactly rock the boat too much in high school. But to those who are courageous enough to come out in high school, and their numbers are growing, they should not be denied the experiences of high school. But that’s what one high school in Mississippi is trying to do:

A Mississippi county school board announced Wednesday it would cancel its upcoming prom after a gay student petitioned to bring a same-sex date to the event.

“Due to the distractions to the educational process caused by recent events, the Itawamba County School District has decided to not host a prom at Itawamba Agricultural High School this year,” school board members said in a statement.

Constance McMillen, an 18-year-old senior at Itawamba, recently challenged a school policy prohibiting her from bringing her girlfriend as her date to the April 2 prom. McMillen, who is a lesbian, and the Mississippi chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union urged school officials to reverse the policy both on McMillen’s choice of date and attire. She also wanted to wear a tuxedo to the dance.

ACLU attorney Christine Sun said her organization receives requests for help every year from students facing anti-gay prom policies. The complaints are especially prevalent in the South where attitudes toward sexuality are more conservative, she said.

In the announcement, the school board encouraged the community to organize a private prom. “It is our hope that private citizens will organize an event for the juniors and seniors. “We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this causes anyone,” the statement concluded. School officials did not respond to calls seeking comment. (USA Today)

By organizing their own prom, the high schoolers and their parents will be free to discriminate against this student. How hurtful can a school district be to one student? Rather than simply allowing this student to be honest about herself, she is denied her high school prom.

Another district in Mississippi denied a place in the yearbook to an out lesbian because she was wearing a tuxedo. Apparently the district has some sort of conformity rules where only males can wear a tuxedo.

On Thursday, the ACLU announced that they were suing the school district:

The American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi on Thursday filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Oxford on behalf of 18-year-old Constance McMillen, who said she faced some unhappy classmates after the Itawamba County School District said it wouldn’t host the April 2 prom.

“Somebody said, ‘Thanks for ruining my senior year,’” McMillen said of her reluctant return Thursday to Itawamba Agricultural High School in Fulton.

The lawsuit seeks a court order for the school to hold the prom. It also asks that McMillen be allowed to escort her girlfriend, who is a fellow student, and wear a tuxedo, which the school said also violated policy.
The district’s decision Wednesday came after the ACLU demanded that officials change a policy banning same-sex prom dates because it said it violated students’ rights. The ACLU said the district violated McMillen’s free expression rights by not letting her wear a tux. (AP)

In an interview on CBS News, Constance talks about just wanting to be a regular kid, and taking her girlfriend to the prom. But instead, she has to get in a fight just to live her life as anybody else would.

For the most part, the right-wing outrage seems limited to the parents. From a scouring of the internet, if there is any student unrest it is because the prom was canceled, not because a lesbian wanted to bring her girlfriend to the prom. It is a shame that some parents will go to extreme lengths to pass along the fear and bigotry that they harbor.

Filed under: Right-wing

Tags: youth

Mexico City Makes History Let Constance Take Her Girlfriend to Prom

1925158 CommentsDenied+the+Experience+of+Youth2010-03-13+16%3A00%3A36Brian+Leubitz Leave a Comment

1. Chris | March 13, 2010 at 1:10 am

Allowing her to bring her choice of dates violates students' rights? C'mon.
2. RAY in MA | March 13, 2010 at 1:12 am

I see a classic politlcal cartoon… an ostrich with it's head in the ground next to a poster saying "Itawamba Prom Cancelled".

There could have been one helluva prom with the money the Itawamba School Committee is going to waste on defending their right to discriminate!
3. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 1:26 am

“Due to the distractions to the educational process caused by recent events, the Itawamba County School District has decided to not host a prom at Itawamba Agricultural High School this year,” school board members said in a statement."

I find it so funny that they blame Constance for the distraction, when it is the school that decided to make it an issue…..well now its a global issue…..if these Hateros would just acknowledge that ALL tax payers and their children are entitled to ALL the rights of everybody else….this situation would never be an issue….unfortunately they only care about what they want, what they need, what they deserve, what they are entitled to….

They are all selfish, greedy, spoiled, unethical, immoral, disrespectful, un-American, uneducated, ignorant, naive, childish, inhuman, hypocritical, cherry picking, prejudiced, bigoted, blind, deaf, and dumb Troglodytes unworthy of any respect…..

They never learn…."When you FU<K with one……you FU<K with all"

We will not be silenced, We will not be stopped, We will not be controlled, We will not accept NO for an answer…..No is what you tell a dog….We are not dogs…..we are humans…..and shall be treated like such……Hateros will learn to respect and tolerate that which they know nothing about….History reassures that TRUTH……<3…Ronnie
4. Richard A. Walter (s | March 13, 2010 at 1:50 am

So the hateros are still trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. None of the students had a problem with Constance and her girlfriend going to the prom; it was the hatero parents who refuse to take the time to see the harm they are doing who are raising the stink. I personally applaud these two young ladies and regard them as civil rights sheroes!
5. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 1:55 am

There is another thing that comes to mind, as I read this story. That is how are the high school students treating Constance following this event. I agree with Ronnie, when he wrote:
"They are all selfish, greedy, spoiled, unethical, immoral, disrespectful, un-American, uneducated, ignorant, naive, childish, inhuman, hypocritical, cherry picking, prejudiced, bigoted, blind, deaf, and dumb Troglodytes unworthy of any respect….."
It seems to me Prom is a rite of passage and for the school district to deny the students their prom constitutes a serious breach in sanity! <3 David
6. fern | March 13, 2010 at 2:01 am

Reading the Boston Edge I thought about the ostrich too then I started to wonder about turkeys.
Education is also propaganda and brainwashing, no wonder we get people like Kenneth Starr.
7. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 2:07 am

LOL – thanx, fern! I agree wtih your statement about Kenneth Starr and btw, a few others come to mind, like Bush, etc. <3 David
8. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 2:10 am

Heheheeh…"constitutes a serious breach in sanity!"……Thanks for that David K…..that reminds of another "breach of sanity" that turned into a Broadway Musical and Cult Classic Movie……<3….Ronnie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUsNpfXwEy0
9. Joe | March 13, 2010 at 2:19 am

Constance is one incredibly brave girl. I wouldn't have had the guts to do this, and on behalf of the millions of people denied her experience, you go girl!
10. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 2:21 am

Thanx, Ronnie! That was great! I noticed a few of the guys and girls dancing together during the video! <3 David
11. Paul | March 13, 2010 at 2:25 am

After all is said and done…Constance must deal with living where she does… surrounded by bigotry. As an older gay, relatively quiet in my "gayness"…I applaud the young, brave gays willing to step out and demand their "due process".
The story of Constance and her girlfriend helps all of us gather courage and strength…and in the end we'll see the new world as it should be…equal rights for ALL.
Paul
12. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 2:31 am

Times they are a chagin' – that for sure! When I was in HS, back in the days of the dinosaurs, (I think they became extinct and for good reason) things like this could have never happened. I am happy to see there are still people in the world, who believe in fighting for what is the correct thing to do! This song was very popular during the Vietnam war, which I remember well, which dates me to the 1960's – 1970's <3 David
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13. Bill | March 13, 2010 at 2:33 am

I simply cannot understand the heterosexual's intense and burning need to abuse their gay children.

And I hope I never do.

But that is all this is. Abuse. Public abuse. Public gay bashing. Intended to degrade this young girl. Intended to dehumanize and humiliate this young girl.

If heterosexuals are the moral compass from which gay citizens are to find our direction, I fear we're all doomed.

But it is the heterosexual community's lack of shame at their public abuse of our community that makes me wonder what it is exactly that they hope to achieve with this vile and public abuse.

As a parent, I understand the concerns of the parents at this school. We recognize that from the teenage years and into the mid-twenties, young adults are prone to experimentation in all facets of their lives, especially their sexuality. My husband and I have brought up our children in a loving household, and we and they look forward to the days when our kids will get married and have their own kids.

These attention-seeking kids would only serve to disrupt the prom, to be spectacles in an environment that sees their relationship and accompanying garb as contrary to the normal, natural relationships that we and our society value. Why would we want to expose our kids to this element of society and their silly behavior? Why would we want to risk putting thoughts in their heads about becoming one of these spectacles themselves?

Do we have new angle here for a re-make of Hitchcock's "The Birds" ?

You are an asshole.

I suspect you know that already.

Melissa does not yet deserve the young lives that have been entrusted to her care.

@ Melissa – I could not disagree more with your opinion – I knew from the time I was only a boy, I was gay! I also disagree, these kids are attention-seeking, as you put it. As to why we would want to expose "our kids" to this element of society. I would think this would be obvious, even to an ostrich! You again act like is a choice – it NOT A CHOICE to be GLBT, learn about life before touting such utter nonsense! <3 David

Ah…a new Hatero….to SQUASH…..did you not read anything I said….have you ignored every single thread and cherry pick when and where you wanted to put your ignorant penny sense in…..The school disrupted her life….she is the one that is being blamed for this…get a fu<king life you hatero b!tch…..Newsflash….its already in their heads….watch some fu<king tv, listen to the fu<king music….you are brain washing your kids to HATE…..it is the Hatero adults who that don't find it normal…..check the blogs….check FB….Kids all over the country are telling people like you to STFU and mind your own FuKing business you Hatero…..<3…Ronnie

Melissa is not intelligent enough to realize that Melissa has been ruined. By terrible lessons taught to her by HER parents.

And so she creates another brood of bigoted little idiots destined to carry on her prideful legacy of bigotry. How proud she must be.

There is no hope for the Melissa's of this world. Like I said. Ruined. And so now, she in turn, ruins. Her very own children.

Morality indeed, Melissa. You are ignoring your god-given responsibility of raising children that know better than you did. Yet you choose to continue the ignorance that has caused so much distruction in this world. Instead, you would choose to deny a different child access to one of the most important events of youth so that you don't have to deal with your character flaws.

God LOVES that kind of shit.

Paul, now is the time to stop being quiet about your gayness, it's people like you we are counting on to help make the change, the ones who spent the life quietly in the closet. This movement needs people like you to find some way to be seen heard and counted.

We have a second opportunity here, lets join the coming out movement, it's never too late to be liberated.

Don't just applaud the young gays, let us all applaud you for taking a stand, and challenging others to do likewise, maybe there could be a National Coming Out Day.

Her entire comment only speaks to just how ruined she is as a human being.

What a waste. Truly a waste.

I feel sorry for her children.

Melissa is an insult to everyone named Melissa….Maybe Melissa Rycroft can sure her for using her name to spread words of HATE….If Lindsay Lo. can then why can't she…..<3….Ronnie

P.S. Melissa Rycroft is another ally….Jason's an idiot…but I'm happy for him and Molly….2 more allies.

I feel sorry for her children and any children she has the chance to influence in life! I hope the kids will reject such garbage for what it is – TRASH! Trash has a receptacle to be deposited! <3 David

I meant sue….hehehe….<3…Ronnie

26. Bill | March 13, 2010 at 3:02 am

This really made my morniing, and probably my whole WEEKEND!!!!

Show this to EVERYONE you know. It is beautiful.
http://firedoglake.com/2010/03/13/if-only-there-w…
27. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 3:16 am

Thanx, Bill – I agree this is totally beautiful! Yet something the article did not say is this:

Hate is not an inate trait – it is learned. It is passed from generation to generation. Led by ignorance and bigotry, it consumes the world, like a pandemic outbreak. I only wish there were more Desmond's in the world to speak, but wait there are, as the FDL article so brilliantly expressed. It is we, that must break the cycle. To allow hatred and bigotry a place in the world will only consume it with rapid haste. <3 David
28. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 3:19 am

I posted this video in hopesm that love would win out, but as was so eloquently illustrated by Melissa's ignorance, I feel, I may have been premature in granting them intelligence. <3 David
29. Straight Ally #3008 | March 13, 2010 at 3:20 am

Well, allowing gay people to marry harms straight marriages, right? /snark
30. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 3:24 am

Melissa, thanks for finding your way to this site and sharing your opinion, opening yourself to the type of feedback you have recieved indicates
1. you just want to stick it to us
2. you're being honest, and wanting some feedback,
I'm going to respond to the second point, cause the first has already been adresssed.
As a parent, you are looking at this from what you were taught in the distant past, you are imposing your narrow minded outdated beliefs on a new generation of youth who have grown beyond discrimination, hatred, and fear of differences, this is called evolution. The youner generation is evolving, and will do so in spite of what you think.
Thank God, young adults are prone to experimentation, please remember back,( cause this is one thing you still have in common,) the things you experimented with at that age, and how you worried your own folks. This is a natural part of self discovery.and growing up.
As to attention seeking behavior, you are the one guilty of that, because you feel you have the right to inflict your perspective on others, thereby drawing attention to your fears and misconceptions in hopes that a whole generation of youth , and particularily this school, would stunt their evolution to satisfy your level of comfort.
I understand that you want your children to get married and have children, basically you're freaked that your kids might be gay. Please if you learn anything from joining on this chat site let it be the stories you read about how you can have no impact on this.
Again you date yourself by thinking that high school environment is one in which this behavior is contrary to the norm, your children see you as being contrary to the norm.
You have no ability to limit your childrens exposure, to the reality of the society we are living in, it is silly to think you can.
The household you have created is not a loving environment, because love is open to all possibilites even your most horrid fear of one of your own being gay.
Lastly, have you had this discussion with your children, you seem to be speaking for them, but rather I think your projecting your opinions onto them.
Please have an honest dialogue with your children,
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us, and realize there is nothing you can do to make this go away, but you can help your children be accepting and understanding of the differences out their in the world.
31. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 3:35 am

In 1957, Carlotta Walls, Jefferson Thomas, Gloria Ray, Ernest Gree, Elizabeth Eckford, Thelma Mothershed, Terrence Roberts, Minnijean Brown and Melba Pattillo braved the jeers and threats of fellow students to walk into Little Rock Central High School. Rosa Parks refused to relinquish her seat on a bus. David Richmond, Franklin McCain, Ezell Blair, and Joseph McNeil sat down at a "whites-only" Woolworth's lunch counter and ask to be served.

I am indebted to the "attention-seeking" people who've come before me. They have all helped to make my country, and the world, a better place.
32. Brandy | March 13, 2010 at 3:40 am

I grew up in Carlsbad New Mexico. (Can we see where this is going?) My senior year seemed like a mini civil rights movement that failed. Pretty painful honestly.

One night a group of us queers decided to decorate the school for "School Pride Day." We put up HUGE rainbow banners and signs that said "Rainbow School Pride." Because we were those "attention-seeking kids" Not looking for support and help.. but to ruin the other kids day.. RIGHT! Anyways, we opened our selves up for a HUGE onslaught of harassment.

That day there was a Pep Rally and the campus was decorated with our art and it was quickly torn down by students and teachers. I saw my counselor taking down posters that I put up! At the rally SEVERAL students held signs condoning violence against us "Rainbow Rangers." NO ONE made them put those away… I had things thrown at me all day.. it was horrible. I am so friggen scared to hold my wife's hand in public now.

Anyhow, prom came around and I was not aloud to bring a girlfriend and was scared to death to fight it. So I took my gay friend Jacob. Prom was lame and ruined by all those attention seeking hate motivated kids that were brain washed by their parents to live their lives judging others.
33. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 3:45 am

A gift to the Hateros……get the point already….your kids certainly do…..<3….Ronnie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n7nKNLSJCU
34. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 3:51 am

Melissa, if you come back to check for replies, please scroll down to Bills posting #30 and open the link, today is a special day for you because this message is for you
35. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 3:51 am

And Melissa, you owe a debt of gratitude to Constance McMillen. You just don't realize it yet.
36. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 4:19 am

This from the "Let Constance Take Her Girlfriend to Prom!" facebook page:

Constance will be on The Wanda Sykes Show tonight on Fox and Wanda has a special surprise for her.

Here in the Los Angeles area, Wanda Sykes is on Fox KTTV (Channel 11) at 11pm
37. Melissa | March 13, 2010 at 5:09 am

I don't hate anyone. I think these kids have a disorder that they need to resolve through their free will, but changing the rules to accomodate them only encourages them to not try to resolve their issues.

Evolution does not mean that everything has to change. Some things society recognizes as good and does not want them to change. The way you speak, it's as if at some point, all boys and girls will decide before they go to the prom whether they are going to bring a boy or a girl.

My kids think what I teach them to think and based on how I teach then to think. They love my husband and me, and when they are faced with a situation that they do not understand, they consult with us to try and understand. They do not resort to their friends and teachers as their source of right and wrong, as many "evolving" kids do. Bad parenting is half the problem with kids today. Absent fathers, TV babysitters, and a lack of discipline are but a few of the reasons that many kids today get their social educations from the television, magazines, and their friends.

My kids know what's going in the world around them, but they know how to assess right and wrong instead of going along with the crowd that believes that everything is alright.

So, thanks for your concern for my kids, but they will be just fine.
38. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 5:18 am

Where have I heard that "I don't hate anyone" line before…oh that's right the preacher who wants to kills gays in Uganda….Scott Lively who agrees that he kill gays in Uganda…..Lauren Ashley who believes gays should die….

No body believes you Melissa…STFU Hatero skank….

Freedom of expression is the law and the rules….Constance's mother pay taxes for that school…so her rights are equal to every student….

You are a mind reader?….you know what your kids think?….Bull shite….

So you think and you teach your kids that it is right to discriminate to say I will take your tax money but your rights are less then important then mine because you don't think like me….Hi Hitler……Hi Red Coat…..Hi Slave Owner….

STFU and go pray for your inhuman soul…Hatero B!TCH…..<3….Ronnie
39. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 5:19 am

there is already a national coming out day. It is October 11th.
40. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 5:24 am

I think we need an extra special one, (coming out day) sometime between know and when the court rules on Prop 8, like a big flood the streets, be visible, maybe an actual march to the court house to hear the virdict, while we all block traffic kind of thing
41. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 5:25 am

you ever wear a pair of jeans Melissa?

yeah I thought so.

Jeans were meant for men…but I guess YOUR comfort makes it OK for YOU to ditch the norm and wear mens clothes right?.
fricken hypocrite.
I hope all your kids turn out gay and then you are forced to suffer an eternity of self imposed HELL.

and just so you know…as a gay man who was SURROUNDED and BOMBARDED with the sight of straights wearing :straight" clothes, and kissing in public, and holding hands right out in the open..I never ONCE thought about trying to be straight. because I was BORN gay.

your argument and thought process is proof that the education system has already failed you. perhaps your kids still have a fighting chance to learn a thing or two about REALITY!

what a shame your life is so sad and empty that some girl who is unknown to you has the power to control your emotions simply by what she wears and who she loves….sad indeed.
that shows more a failure on YOUR part in life than it does with the brave girl you are trying to hate for no reason.
now go away before someone drops a house on you too….
42. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 5:27 am

another thing Melostit……Evolution mean everything will change…you uneducated idiot…get a fu<king life and stop trying to control other peoples lives……free will my TGA….you mean free will to live how you see fit for other people to live….Grow up white hood…..<3…Ronnie
43. Straight Grandmother | March 13, 2010 at 5:43 am

Melissa, I am a parent also of two children (young adults). If you read your post back to yoruself please notice that it is all about me. Me Me Me Me Me Me "Our children" "Our kids." Well I got news for you, the public schools are for EVERYBODY not JUST YOUR KIDS but ALL Kids and that includes gays and lesbians.
You claim you raise your childen in a loving home, what type of love is it that rejects anyone based on who they are attracted to? What kind of love is that???? That is how you show by example to your children how to love thier fellow man (woman).

You should take the high road and simply tell your childrent the truth, that there are people in this world who are attracted to others of the same sex. It is a fact of live Melissa. Your idea of having gays and lesbians and don't forget transgender persons stay home from their own prom because it "bothers you" shows only ignorence and selfishness and does not in any way indicate a loving home. Ha-Ha-Ha to you Melissa- the world is a changing, our son is marrying is partner in Washington DC in less than a month. Did you hear Gays and Lesbians FINALLY got their civil right to marry in DC. Hide Melissa hide good, take your children and lock them up in the closet gays and lesbians are everywhere… and you'll never ever again live in a society where they are not out and proud of who they are. They are not hiding any more. Now if you don't like it, take your children and YOU go hide in the closet. LOL HA HA HA.
44. Straight Grandmother | March 13, 2010 at 5:53 am

Oh my goodness Brandy how awful, how dreadful. If it didn't break you I hope it made you stronger. You were brave, you ARE brave all the future generations of gays and lesbians will be a little bit better because of what you did. You may not think it worked but it DID. You brought the issue to the table, out into the sunlight. There are many skirmishes before the battle is won. Hold yoru head up HIGH!
45. Regan DuCasse | March 13, 2010 at 5:53 am

Melissa,
I mentor gay teenagers and as a mother you should know that young folks don't like being treated as if they are babies or stupid.

Which is what you're doing to your children in 'not wanting them exposed to that sort of thing'.

Oh what, being exposed to BIGOTRY and PREJUDICE is preferable than being exposed to gay people?! Especially at the PEER level?

Have you seen Constance McMillan? She's a beautiful, SMART and BRAVE young woman who is teaching the adults and her peers how damaging bigotry is.

She IS doing more for your children than you are in that regard.
There are things in this life that are INEVITABLE, Melissa. Like being with people different from ourselves, LEARNING ABOUT them and not wasting ANY opportunities to do so.

You just revealed how ignorant you are about what sexual orientation and being gay is. Yet, you'd deny your kids AND Constance the perfect opportunity to be ALLIES against more difficult things to navigate in life.

You're not doing your children any favors. You're leaving them wide open to being EMBARRASSED.

First by YOU.
Then eventually what YOU'RE teaching will make them look ridiculous later on.

Way to go, mom.
46. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 6:08 am

Melissa, thanks for continuing the dialog,

Please search this website thoroughly, you will find lots of postings of websites that are enlightening in ways that are not expressed on the religious right websites, or those who are behind prop8, for example, the two sermons posted a few days back,
You will find that some religious folks have found there way to a different understanding of the issues, than what is preached from many pulpits.
In particular you will read much scientific evidence from well educated people who say being gay is not a disorder, so that belief on your part is simply not true.
But we could say that you are disordered, in your thinking and beliefs.
You say you do not hate, the opposite of hate is LOVE, you can only teach your children one or the other, so you must choose, because anything else, like some middlle ground, will only produce psychologically disturbed people.
The heart of this issue is to attempt to overcome that.
You are simply wrong in saying your children think what you teach them to think, this is such a horrible abusive thought, I pray you will really do some soul searching and meditation on this belief. Children are little people with their own minds, your role as a parent is to teach them to have their own thoughts, and share them with you, any good doctor will tell you that, otherwise you are just raising puppets via mind control.
Also if you read a posting by Kathleen on this website, it's from Mormons on Marriage, a very compelling story of a young man that after all attempts at trying to control his thoughts to think the way his parents and church wanted him to, he failed and wound up killing himself. In the end that's the result of telling your children what to think.
The real truth of course is you teach them not by what you think but by what you do, in this case your actions are controlling, and this behavior usually results at some point in rebellion.
On the bright side, in most cases, if it is true that you are a loving parent, you don't need to worry about any of this, you will ultimately teach them love.
The fact that you have these concerns indicates you have a problem, and fear is ruling your ability to be a loving parent.
How old are your children, are they of the age to begin exploring they're sexual identity?
So far you have taught your children to only discuss with you things of which you would approve, they are not dumb, this situation, creates exactly what you are trying to avoid. If they have thoughts you wouldn' appove of, they will keep those thoughts to themselves, and then of course go to friends or someone else for help with them. .
47. Melissa | March 13, 2010 at 6:49 am

This reply is to Bob….

First, it is surprising to hear all of the hateful remarks from this group. Wow. "Accept us or prepare to be destroyed," lol. What a mean group you seem to be.

Second, I'm not a religious person, so if you think that's where I'm coming from, you're wrong. I go to the school of common sense, so what those educated scientists that you refer to think doesn't really persuade me all that much – as if they don't come to their studies with their own personal and political biases. So spare me that "people smarter than you think differently" nonsense. Boys have one thing, girls have another and they work together, naturally, to make children. It's beautiful, natural, and we've built societies around it. If your inclined to be with someone of the same sex, that's unnatural, it's a disorder. Perhaps it's learned; perhaps it's inborn, but it is a disorder. We're all born with our issues that we need to deal with in order to live in a society, but we shouldn't expect the world to change because of our differences. Sometimes we just have to deal with the cards we're dealt.

My kids talk to me about everything. I don't tell them to hate anybody, but to be sympathetic to those who are different.
48. Tim | March 13, 2010 at 7:01 am

I think being ignorant is a lot of work! I don't have time for it. I think I will be lazy today and have an open mind and love everyone. It's really NOT that hard.
49. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 7:02 am

Melissa, I found this part of your post somewhat perplexing: "The way you speak, it’s as if at some point, all boys and girls will decide before they go to the prom whether they are going to bring a boy or a girl."

Of course they do. Won't your own children, when they choose a prom date, decide whether they are going to bring a boy or a girl? Of course they will.

If a straight persondecides to bring someone to the prom toward whom they feel an attraction or have a romantic interest, then the person they choose to bring will be someone of the opposite sex. That's only natural because a straight person's orientation is such that when choosing to date, or court, or love, and maybe one day marry, the object of their love and affection will be someone of the opposite sex.

In the same way, if a gay person decides to bring someone to the prom toward whom they feel an attraction or have a romantic interest, then the person they choose to bring will be some one of the same sex. That's only natural because a gay person's orientation is such that when choosing to date, or court, or love, and maybe one day marry, the object of their love and affection will be someone of the same sex.

There is choice in whom to bring to the prom, but there's no more choice in a gay person deciding to whom it is s/he is attracted than there is when a straight person decides to whom s/he's attracted. And, despite your beliefs, both orientations are perfectly normal variations in this wonderfully diverse world in which we live.

So I ask you, why should the straight person be allowed to bring someone s/he's dating and the gay person not?

BTW, the if you want some insight into the torment and self-loathing your brand of "love" encourages, please read this: http://mormonsformarriage.com/?page_id=22
While that particular story involves a person raised in the Mormon church, the effect of the message broadcast by any form of homophobic intolerance is the same.

I, too, am a parent, and a grandparent. I am saddened by the fact that you are teaching your children to perpetuate your mistaken beliefs. But I can hope that one day, if they haven't already, they will free their minds and hearts of the fear and ignorance you have worked to instill in them.
50. JusB | March 13, 2010 at 7:03 am

I have two comments:

The first is for those that really disappoint in their response to comments like Melissa's on this issue by name calling, projecting religious assumptions, and questioning of parental skills; which is what we as a community are constantly met with in the world. I plan on addressing her comments later, but no where in her comments did she use extremely derogatory language (ie: "asshole") or expound "godly" knowledge.
I know we are all up in arms regarding this issue and so many others that put civil rights in jeopardy, but responding in such ways does not produce nor encourage a platform for empathy. It alienates those on both sides of the issue and pushes those that may lie in the various shades of grey in between away (how did Melissa get to this site in the first place? – shade of grey, curiosity, information seeking).

The second comment is in response to Melissa:
As you pointed out in your first comment, a loving, caring relationship is valued in society and is normal. The means in which people get there vary GREATLY from person to person and there is no one way that can ever be considered "normal." It's not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of love – which is all any of us want, are fighting for, and are defending.
Constance, her girlfriend, and people like them who are standing up for who they are, aren't misfit attention-seekers. They are honestly trying to have the same opportunities as everyone else – live a happy life, go to Prom, find the love that society holds so dear, get married. Unfortunately, in this case it has served to have others draw negative attention to any differences those individuals may possess.
This "element" of society that you refer to are people; and their "silly behavior" isn't misguided or a disorder – it is their life, is it who they are. They didn't choose their life, but it is those around them who choose to make a "spectacle" of it. As we see in this case in Miss. the board's response to a simple request has only served to damage/punish an entire student body which has caused more of a spectacle than allowing two people to go to prom ever would have.
There are very few hard and fast rules about life: do good works; be kind to others. No one asking for these basics to change, but what groups of people have been asking for over centuries is the acknowledgment that they fall into that framework and to be treated equally as such.

Happy Days to All,
Jus
51. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 7:05 am

I find it quite ironic that Melissa says that a gay girl should be treated like a piece of garbage because HER opinion that being gay is OK infringes on her life. she feels that this young girls opinions have NO place in her childrens world or in her community. says we should not FORCE her to have to deal with the issue…then Miss Melissa feels it is not fair when SHE herself comes into a GAY TOPIC FORUM espousing HER views onto us, and then gets upset when we tell her she is wrong…I guess in her strange little world…ONLY straight people have the right to FORCE thier opinions on everyone else….

so because of your OWN thought process Melissa that you silly straights should not have to be forced to listen to the views of gay people, then YOU must recuse yourself from this forum. for you see, if gays have no place or right to voice an opinion in YOUR world, then YOU likewise have no place to do so in ours…
now run along. Intelligent adults are trying to have a grown up discusssion. BITCH
52. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 7:05 am

This reply is to Melostit…there are no A & B conversations in this community so if that's what you want……C yourself out……

First….that's pot calling the kettle black…I don't Hate Hateros I pity you…….Mean and angry are 2 different things…look it up….when somebody takes your rights away and treats like nothing then maybe you can talk…..until then STFU TRASH BAG…..

Second……There is no school of common sense you moron….."Boys have one thing, girls have another and they work together, naturally, to make children."……Prop Ha8te 101 copy and paste….

not all straight people can procreate….enough said….STFU……

Yes making a baby is beautiful and thanks to in-vitro and surrogacy Same Gender couple can make a baby as well…..enough said ……STFU……

"it’s a disorder"…..you got proof of that?…..I didn't think so…..enough said……STFU….

"we shouldn’t expect the world to change because of our differences"…..if AA's believed that civil rights would have never happened……If women believed that you wouldn't having the discussion….If the early colonials believed that we would still be under British rule….If interracial couples believed that then there would still be white only and black only marriages….honesty….tell us something we haven't debunked….or you can just read every thread in this community…enough said….STFU…..

"Sometimes we just have to deal with the cards we’re dealt."…..Take your own fu<king advice and mind your own business…Swatzy Hatero….

"My kids talk to me about everything."…..that's what you think….but unless you are psychic and are with them 24 hours a day 7 days a week ….then you are fooling yourself….enough said….STFU…..<3….Ronnie
53. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 7:27 am

She deserved it plain and simple….curious people come asking questions not insulting people….she didn't ask….she wasn't nice….she attacked….in that same old Hatero way….nobody said destroy….that was her word….Like I always say…."Hateros only see what they want to see….and hear what they want to hear and make up the rest"….she isn't hear to learn….she's here to make us feel like nothing, tell us how we feel and what we are thinking, to tell us how to live our lives…..Well its not working….My mother raised me that everybody is equal…Melissa doesn't believe that…all she cares about is herself………selfish b!tch…..she ignores that Constance is somebodies daughter and their tax money pays for the same education her children get but apparently only her opinions are worth the price of those taxes…..SELFISH…..<3….Ronnie
54. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 7:28 am

Dieter, I always wonder, those people who say things like… if they must be gay, that's one thing, but why do they have to flaunt it?, while standing there holding their (os) spouse's hand… do you think they ever see the irony? They don't seem to "get" it that straight people "flaunt" their straightness all the time.
55. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 7:30 am

SCREW THAT!

you see these assholes do not understand intelligent discussion..all they understand is hate and ignprance, so in the line of remaining fair and consistant in the only way
they can get their tiny little minds to grasp a concept, Melissa can suck my ig gay dick and get over it.
she wants to deny gay people the right to offer their own opinions, while going out of her WAY to come into a GAY discusssion forum with the INSISTANCE that WE listen to her views..
fuck the hypocrite.

and I don't care if you like name calling or not…it's all people like her understand.

and most likely since she protests so much about gay people, and finds SO MUCH time to spend in a gay discusssion room, one has to wonder what she is hiding about her own sexual feelings…Me thinks this bitch has had a vagina or two in her hands at some point.
56. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 7:48 am

Melissa, thanks for clarifying that you are not a religious person, can you explain what that means. I'm so happy to know people who have not been brainwashed by religion.
I appreciate that you come from the school of common sense, that would make it easier for you to do some exploring and learning about the issues without having worry about adhering to false belief system. Can you tell me a little more about your common sense and how that has got you to the conclusions you have arrived at.
Are you saying common sense does not include any educated conclusions, arrived at through study, are you saying that scientific conclusions reached are the result of the particular scientists pre concieved ideas, and they twist the data to support their view.
Does that mean you have a mistrust of any knowledge that does not come through your own common sense, or that your common sense is so valid and true, that nothing could impact or change it.
Can you try to approach it from this perspective, common sense is your religion, and your belief in your own common sense is a belief that must be protected and gaurded against all threats of challenge to your thinking.
I welcome your challenges to my thinking, I am a gay man who has personally come through all these issues, in fact you remind me very much of my own mother.
In this situation the cards we're dealt is your belief in common sense, and that I am disordered.
My card is the gay card, and I'm playing it, bottom line is they're both just cards. Let's take for example the jocker, lot's of games that card is not used, but it's still there, in the game of life and the issues that are confronting us, we are playing with a full deck including the jocker, does that make any common sense.
Know it's all up to who gets to make the rules or how we agree which game we're playing, you may not like the gay card, but it's the one in my hand and I'm playing it. and this fact does change the game.for both of us.
Please don't pity yourself by thinking you're not as smart as scientists, niether am I . But they too have a card to play in this game of life.and they've played it. So to historians have plalyed their card.
Melissa, tell me what you're afraid of.
57. Bolt | March 13, 2010 at 7:50 am

The Itawamba school district is very clever. "“Somebody said, ‘Thanks for ruining my senior year,’” McMillen said of her reluctant return Thursday to Itawamba Agricultural High School in Fulton." They exploited the anti-gay hatred, espoused by religious leaders, to turn all of the students against a girl based on her sexuality.

The school board deserves extreme scrutiny for what they've done. This is deliberate manipulative malice directed at a student because she is gay. We need federal legal protection now, and 40 years ago!
58. Bolt | March 13, 2010 at 7:56 am

Melissa is an idiot, and sounds as stupid as the crazy religious zealots who are obsessed with everything gay. Ignore that stupid douche bag.

Melissa: if you're looking for an ass kissing, fuck you!
59. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 8:00 am

Yeah..you know what?..I don't HATE straight people, as long as they don't flaunt it…LOL
60. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 8:01 am

I think we need a song because this Hatero is making me want to say the following…..Ladies, Gentlemen, and all those who read between the lines….I give you ….."the New Directions"…….enjoy…..<3….Ronnie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lKSbdCNJxU
61. Don In Texas | March 13, 2010 at 8:10 am

There are three core principles in democracy: freedom, equality and justice.

The Mississippi school district violates all three with its ruling in this episode.

Let them demonstrate in court how allowing these two young girls attend their prom "distracts from the educational process."

Let them tell the judge how allowing a girl to wear at tuxedo to her prom "distracts from the educational process."

Let them convince the world that there is common sense in canceling the prom does not "distract from the educational process."
62. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 8:11 am

JusB, bang on, thanks for your comments, I too am a little befuddled by all the hatred spewed at someone who is clearly wanting to dialog from another perspective. And I agree that I initially approached Melissa as if she were from the religious right, but with full intentions of getting to know where she is coming from and I feel she was quite capable of setting me straight on that .

The reactions towards her astound me, is that all we have learned to give back what we've gotten, do we harbor so much hatred, that it renders us incapable of communication.

We could welcome this dialogue and learn from each other, obviously as someone said earlier hate is not an inate characteristic, it's learned. Wow we've learned it well, thanks so much for coming to the rescue, with a little (this one's for Melissa) COMMON SENSE
63. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 8:23 am

I didn't approach her as a religious reichy…..I approached her as a Hatero…..I didn't feel the need to repeat myself…since my answer to people like her was in the statement at the top of the thread….but she ignored that….It's not my fault she doesn't understand the diffs. btw. hate and anger….I stand by what I said because its the truth….others went a little far…..but they have a point….she doesn't have a valid point……just the same old….same old…..prop ha8te garbage…..and if she doesn't believe that all she has to do is print out what she posted and what prop ha8te says…put them next to each other and they will be the same….she's a Hatero and deserved most of it…. <3….Ronnie
64. JusB | March 13, 2010 at 8:41 am

Thank you, Bob, for encouraging the open dialogue. It does seem that we would all get a lot farther if the communication lines were open on both sides…

dieter:
if comments like:
"Melissa can suck my ig gay dick and get over it."
is the definition of what you would like to call "intelligent discussion," this forum, this cause, and this nation really has a longer way to go than we think.

Happy Days to All,
Jus
65. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 8:53 am

OK …..jusb…. it's OK if YOU want to live your life being a coward bigot apologists….but as for me…I won't do it. the woman is a bitch. and if you want to bend over and let her treat YOU like a pile of crap, that seems more like a personal problem for YOU…not ME…

wimps like you who bend over and take it from the likes of that witch are the REAL reason we have yet to achieve equality….the blacks did not achieve equality by baking a bunch of cupcakes for the KKK…

but feel free if that is what floats YOUR boat.

that witch did NOT come into this discussion wanting to learn a damn thing or to discuss other viewpoints. She came here to simply spew her hate and ignorance for all to see…and you have fallen right into it.

I bet you got beat up alot in high school. I didn't ……..I fought back.

if you don't like my comments then don't read them ..problem solved.

I do more to change this world every day of my life than you will ever do by kissing this bitches ass.
66. Sheryl | March 13, 2010 at 9:02 am

Melissa, as a parent, I just don't follow that train of thought. You really think people are gay, lesbian, transsexual, or bi-sexual because they experiment and make a choice? You really think that by being around a person with a different sexual orientation, a person will be influenced to live that lifestyle. Personally, I found nothing wrong with my children being around others who are different, be it race, language, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Teaches them tolerance and acceptance. I've worked with members of the GLBT community (probably more than I really know), i've gone to parties given by lesbians that I worked with. I'm straight. I think it way more important to judge people by their moral character than by their sexual orientation. I wanted my children to hang out with honest, caring, law abiding children and sexual orientation has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

And, because Constance would like to take her girlfriend to the prom, that makes her an attention seeker? If one of your children was being denied something that other children were allowed at school, would you want that child to stand up for his or her rights or would you tell them to be quiet and not make an issue of it and just accept it, thereby ensuring that the discrimination would keep happening. It's not like she wants to do something illegal (well, I do realize there is a subset of society, that would like it to be illegal so they could all be rounded up and locked up and the key thrown away, so to speak). She just wants to take her girlfriend to the prom and she wants to wear a tuxedo. Big deal, why should anybody care?

Sheryl
67. JusB | March 13, 2010 at 9:06 am

…fighting ignorance with ignorance…

…and the "intelligent discussion" rages on ladies and gentlemen.

Happy Days.
68. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 9:09 am

Thanx, Ronnie – that was great! Whoohoo – I really enjoyed that one – you are the master blaster of youtube! <3 David
69. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 9:13 am

you're welcome, David K….I'm glad you enjoyed it…..<3…Ronnie
70. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 9:14 am

@ JusB and Bob – I disagree, since she arrived here with her closed-minded view of the world. My comments to her were not of an attack, but hers were clearly veined in this manner. Please see my comments to her – they were not name calling, nor were they obtrusive. Reading the comments from others here leads me to believe they have the same view of her – a pathetic example of the heterosexual world attempting to stir people's emotions with her views. <3 David
71. JQ | March 13, 2010 at 9:18 am

And as for distracting the educational environment:

1. Calling off the prom certainly won't make high schoolers focus on their education. You can bet that this is the only thing being talked about at that school. I just hope some of the students realize that it was the school board that canceled the prom, not Constance.

2. I can't imagine a better educational opportunity than this. Constance is learning to stand up for herself and others. The school/school board is learning about the legal process. The students are learning about institutional discrimination and the ridiculous routes institutions will go to to continue discriminating. And I hope everyone is learning a little acceptance (but that might take some time to set in…).

3. Most importantly. All of the support Constance has seen and all of the online networking about this has shown young gays across the country that they are not alone -even if that's what it feels like in their small town. And hope is the best education yet.
72. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 9:26 am

Thanx, JQ – I agree! By the way, your last statement "And hope is the best education yet." – reminded me of Bill Clinton's speech – I believe in a place called hope. <3 David
73. Miller | March 13, 2010 at 9:32 am

I know this is off topic, and I posted it in the DADT post, but I am hoping more people will see this here.

Has anyone seen this story yet? It's really criminal. No one in the military asked, and she didn't tell, yet she's fired.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/87588652.html?e…
74. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 9:39 am

Yes, thanx, Miller, I think there was a link to this story in yesterday's story. Still, thanx for sharing it with us. <3 David
75. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 9:40 am

I don't know about everybody else….but in my hometown….Prom was a distraction in general….For Juniors and seniors….Final Exams(unless you are exempt which I was thank you very much) are done in April….all that was left was presentations and final projects…..My school did this because in my school spring break, sports, and the Prom is a huge thing….Our spring sports teams always wind up in the finals, Everybody goes to the jersey shore for spring break, and Prom is like a royal ball. My first girlfriend who turned out to be a Lesbian( I know I'm a gay man how ironic) wore a tux and nobody said anything about it…..

For my town academics come first and is gotten out of the way before the end of the year so that our final 2 months together as teens can be spent just like that together……Constance just wants to be happy but because she doesn't fit some Hatero's mold she can't be….its Bull Sh!te…..<3….Ronnie
76. JQ | March 13, 2010 at 9:41 am

Hallelu
77. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 9:43 am

Hey trackers, tension running a little high, pressures on, know we've come down to attacking each other.
Hang in there jus b, Melissa, please don't shy away, I value the dialogue we are having.
Everybody, this is an internet website, it is not a closet for gays only, it's a glass house, anyone has access to it, same way we have access to our opponents sites, so don't throw stones,
Melissa, I want to know more about your thinking, you're not religious, yet your approach seems to back their beliefs, how do you feel about religion's influence on our institutions, and the effect it has on our lives,
We;re all under pressure Melissa cause this card game we're playing has been stopped because I played the gay card and someone called foul. Because we can't agree amongst ourselves we've called in a referee, which would be Judge Walker, this time sitting waiting around the table for the verdict gives us an opportunity to talk.
I'm scared that he's going to rule in your favor, and call my gay card invalid.
If I'm invalidated, I think I will return to my ace up the sleeve, which is a choice between suicide or homicide, you see passions are running high here, you get that sense from the responses to your communication,
Tell me Melissa, do you think suicide would be the best choice for me when I play my ace, suppose that way there would be one less disordered person in the world, but then again the folks on here would be happy if I were homicidal.
How do we figure this out Melissa, cause the ruling is coming.
Tell me what you are afraid of
78. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 9:53 am

Yes Jusb and your ignorance is astounding.

first:
she stated that she uses common sense and does not believe in science. (ask her about gravity..see if she can explain why we all have not floated off the planet yet)
second:
she stated that it makes "sense" to keep her children "safe" by treating the entire school poorly, just so that her precious little retarded kids don't have to find out that gay people exist. (they already know)and they most likely already have gay friends that they won't tell her about.
Third:
she states that it is the gays who are forcing their lifestyle on HER precious little world, and she does so in a GAY topic forum that she herself interjected herself into with the sole purpose of doing exactly what she accuses gays of doing…

fourth:
YOU are trying to say that having a sweet little nicey nice conversation is intelligent..
LOL…WOW!!!

every time you treat her with respect, it is an excercise in futility.
but you go ahead on and enjoy it.

you are correct…fighting ignorance with ignorance gets us nowhere, and because of softies like you, it will take the REAL gay people who are willing to fight and not put up with such insanity many more years to achieve equality than it otherwise should have. Thanks…thanks alot..
now I shall let you get back to stroking the bitches ego. you do it well.

BY THE WAY ALL:
don't forget to set your clocks forward tonight!!!
79. Straight Dave | March 13, 2010 at 10:22 am

I agree with Bob, JusB, and others who have attempted a meaningful dialog with Melissa, despite the fact they they probably strongly disagree with her position.

The others who have chosen a vicious path make us all look bad and only helps to reinforce Melissa's opinion of the GLBT world. Let's put a better foot forward, guys – please? Melissa did not deserve all that.

I did not see her as being mean, evil, and hateful – certainly not by comparison to many others who have made an appearance here. I see her opinions as being largely motivated by concerns about her children, as any parent would naturally have.

To Melissa:
While I appreciate your concerns, they are based on outdated myths that no longer carry the same widespread credibility they did a generation ago. The world has progressed, becoming more wise and understanding, and even more knowledgeable. This is not a bad thing, but I see where it can make you uncomfortable because it undermines what you have tried to do.

If one of your objectives is to shield and protect your children from the gay lifestyle, you need to realize there are only 2 options. One, if they are already born gay or lesbian, that will be who they are for the rest of their life, so there is nothing you can do other than love them with all your heart and make them feel important and wanted. Two, if they are born straight, there is nothing you have to worry about. They will remain that way for life. In either case, you can help to produce happy and healthy kids. Exposure to other ideas does not contaminate people, at least not in this way. It will not change them one bit.

You really have nothing to fear from others. Trust your children. More knowledge about the rest of society will arm them with what they need to maintain their own sense of self, pride, and integrity. This will only make them stronger, allowing them to grow up and succeed without always being in need of your protection.
80. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 10:41 am

Hmm, let me see, if I have this correct. Melissa comes to a website that is obviously pro-gay rights and begins a dialogue that can only be described as confrontational to our community. Like, when she begins by saying:
"These attention-seeking kids would only serve to disrupt the prom, to be spectacles in an environment that sees their relationship and accompanying garb as contrary to the normal, natural relationships that we and our society value. Why would we want to expose our kids to this element of society and their silly behavior? Why would we want to risk putting thoughts in their heads about becoming one of these spectacles themselves?"

I could not disagree with those comments more that believe this is a healthy conversation. <3 David
81. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 10:43 am

Concerns for her children and other children of Hateros only…she ignores that Constance is someones daughter….She f-ing knows that if anybody said those things about her children all hell would break loose….but WTF makes her so special that only her rights and feelings matter?….She's and HBH and she needs to accept that fact of life along with the fact the LGBTQQIA people are a fact of life and there's nothing she can do about it other then hide her family away in their own little sheltered world……you noticed she had not answered any question….not one…because either she doesn't know the answers to them or you she's too chicken sh!te to answer them and take the criticism like a human…..Life isn't all sugar and spice and notion she has apparently yet to learn….all she does is attack….her first Q's where answered and criticized and when she didn't like the answer she came back with copy and paste lies from prop ha8te……nothing new just blah….<3…Ronnie
82. Straight Dave | March 13, 2010 at 11:06 am

Keep it coming, Bob. I'm with you. People are where they are for a reason. We need to recognize that and work with what we've got. I think Melissa is at least 3 steps away from fully appreciating who Constance is or what she is doing. She can't bridge that gap in one giant leap, no matter what we say. Her biggest obstacle is misinformation that she has been handed all her life. We can help correct that. I do agree with Bill's older posts about focussing our efforts on the courts rather than referendums. But while we're waiting for that legal silver bullet, I will continue to work on the hearts and minds end of things. I am glad to continue the conversation with Melissa. We might even learn something, ourselves.
83. Richard Walter (soon | March 13, 2010 at 11:07 am

Ronnie, thank you for bringing back a very happy part of my youth. Notice how Kevin Bacon's character went from being the outcast to being the local hero for standing up for the right thing!
84. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 11:13 am

What conversation?…..she has not answered one Q….and all she did is talk at people…..If this is a conversation then it is most def. one sided….no second date out of that situation ………. I'm just saying….<3….Ronnie
85. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 11:16 am

"Her biggest obstacle is misinformation that she has been handed all her life."
@ Straight Dave – I agree, but from my perspective, when someone believes they are correct, no amount of chiding or persuasion is going to change their minds. People learn early in life to hate. I was raised in a home, where my father called us, "God damn f***ing faggots". Yet, because of who I was born to be I was able to reject his influence as being little more than hysterics, I just wonder how many of my fathers are out there instilling this same brow beating mentality into their children. Please see my comments @74 for more reasons. <3 David
86. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 11:17 am

you'r welcome dopty-daddy….and that's so true….just like Constance will be the local hero for standing up for the right thing….another parallel btw. this and Footloose……they were not aloud to have a prom or dance or listen to music because of the bible and "traditional" and "normal" values…..Oh the irony…..<3…..Ronnie
87. Richard Walter (soon | March 13, 2010 at 11:20 am

And Kathleen, if you ever get the chance to come to North Carolina, I will make sure you get to go to that Woolworth Lunch counter in Greensboro, which has been preserved as the "February 1 Museum" especially because I want to go myself.
88. David Kimble | March 13, 2010 at 11:22 am

@75 now. <3 David
89. Kathleen | March 13, 2010 at 11:24 am

Thanks, Richard. It's a date!
90. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 11:29 am

Below is an essay written by Steven Stanton's son Travis after he learned that his father was going to become a woman. The story of his father's transformation can be seen on "Her Name Was Steven" at 8 and 11 p.m. ET Saturday on CNN.

Throughout my whole life, I thought my dad was a really tough guy.

He went out with the cops and busted bad guys. He shot guns, fought fires, he was an aggressive driver, and he liked football and lots of sports.

Then, one day my thoughts changed about him when we had a family meeting and he told me how he felt about himself.

He said he felt like a woman on the inside and was going to change into one. He said he tried his best to be a manly guy, but he couldn't stop his feelings to become a girl.

I was very surprised to hear this.

At first, I thought I was in a dream.

It was very hard to believe such a thing. I thought he was a 100% manly man, like more manly than most guys. After a few days, I thought about it.

I knew he was making the right choice to become a girl.

Although I can't relate to his feelings, it must be really hard to hide something like that. It would be like having one million dollars and not being able to spend it. After just so long, your feelings would take over and spend it.

Now, though, I am very proud of my dad.

After I saw him, and saw that inside he was the same dad as he always was: he still likes football, he still likes to be an aggressive driver. He is still the same person, but just different on the outside.

I am very happy for him now that he is who he wants to be.

I think that everyone should be who they are and not try to be the same as other people.

If you ask me, this has got to be the manliest thing he has done in his whole life.

It takes a real man to come out of your shell and say, "hey, I am who I am" and take the responsibility of doing that.

In conclusion, I thought my dad was a man, like, gender wise, but now he is who he is meant to be.

He is himself.
91. Straight Ally #3008 | March 13, 2010 at 11:42 am

Submitted for your consideration, a video by Rob Tisinai.

[youtube
92. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 11:46 am

My open letter to Smuckers:

You have a new slogan, and I just wanted to tell you what it is:

"With a name like Smuckers..
it's gotta be homophobic"

Johnny Weir should skate. He is a NATIONAL champion. That is more than YOUR company can claim.

enjoy your hateful business practices, and may the financial losses you suffer from your act of pure hatred come back to ruin all of you and your families.

rest assured, the boycott that is about to occur will be mind numbing. and also say goodbye to any support for any other "products " or companies that follow your hateful practices.

and the simple fact that you have refused to either mention or acknowledge your poor decision, only shows that you truly believe that your company is proud of promoting hate and harming people.

be sure to watch for all the anti smuckers sites and groups that will be shortly popping up on youtube, twitter, myspace, facebook etc etc etc etc

now I am off to go buy something…anything that is a direct competitor of yours.

93. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 11:51 am

@ Melissa…
perhaps you need to stop worrying about gay kids in schools..and start worrying about THIS:
The truth about what you should be worried about..STRAIGHT teachers molesting their students
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/apps/cvp/3.0…
94. Straight Ally #3008 | March 13, 2010 at 11:52 am

If I’m invalidated, I think I will return to my ace up the sleeve, which is a choice between suicide or homicide….

Never give in to despair or rage, Bob. Just look at this graph and you can see our side is winning and will prevail.

Furthermore, Ted Olson made the point in a recent interview that even a loss at the Supreme Court will not invalidate same-sex marriages where they are already legal (I'm not a lawyer, so it was a relief to learn that).
95. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 12:08 pm

Ronnie, she has answered questions, perhaps just not the ones you want her to , or in a way you want her to,
yes she may fit into your clasification of a hatero, but she is also an individual which will not fit all the stereotypes, if we see her as an individual, we may gain some insights into her thought process.

she is just as convinced of being right, as we are, both of us have to be able to accept that we may be wrong in order to find the truth. Truth stands in the same place no matter who is right or wrong, Dialog hopefully brings us to truth, we can not reach that by talking amongst ourselves, but being challenged by what we percieve as the enemy.

I am entering this dialog with Melissa, accepting that some of my arguements may be proven wrong, as she alreay did with the religion thing, although I'm still wondering about that, her common sense and religion just seem to have to much in common.
I could be wrong, I prefer being wrong to being right, being right feeds my ego, and that's one thing I don't want to do. I would rather find the truth than be right,

Straight Dave, I hear ya, we're here for a reason

Melissa come back at me with all ya got tell me what you're fraid of. I have a feeling you're a really good card player, I can hear you now strumming your fingers on the table while you're deciding your next move. What ever ya got play it, Remins me of playing cards, with my partner, our gay friend and his mother, my friend wasn't out with his mother, it was just too crazy for words, cause how could she not know. but we played along, and boy did we fight when we played, and his mom would always make up new rules as we went along, that was so much fun,
Throw your card Melissa, we're waiting
96. Richard Walter (soon | March 13, 2010 at 12:13 pm

Dieter, thank you for posting this essay. Ths demonstrates that both Steven Stanton and his son Travis are heroes. And yes, at 11PM this evening, BZ and I will be watching Her Name Was Steven on CNN. Thank you for the reminder on that.
97. Ronnie | March 13, 2010 at 12:23 pm

What q's has she answered?…..none…. that's how many…..I asked her several q's…no answer…..Kathleen asked her several q's….no answer……. Regan DuCasse asked her several q's…..no answer…..Sheryl, dieter, David K, Straight Grandmother….all asker her several q's…..no answers, no answers, no answers, no answers……….

an omission of denial is an admission to the accusation….<3….Ronnie
98. Bob | March 13, 2010 at 12:31 pm

straight Ally #3008 thanks for that jab in the arm, this is indeed encouraging, hope Melissa reads it, and also the Mormons on Marriage website, so she can see how other people have made shifts in their thinking.
99. dieter | March 13, 2010 at 12:41 pm

@ richard…Her name was Steven was on at 5:00 here in California. I watched..it was very good.
100. Richard Walter (soon | March 13, 2010 at 1:12 pm

Melissa, it has been "the attention seekers" such as Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela who have brought into the public consciusness te injustice of any type of discrimination and oppression, and Candace is no different. All of us are afaid of the very things we know nothing about, and you are no different. I am 47 years old, and I did not get to go to my proms either in my junior year or my senior year, because I was raised not to lie, and taking a female and pretending I was straight would have definitely been a violation of my moral code. Yes, I have been married twice, so I do not have a perfect record as far asholding to my moral code of not lying about who I am and who I love. The first time I was married was an attempt to prevent being thrown out of the US Navy, and the second was another attempt to fool myself into thinking I was only going through a phase. However, I was miserable both times, and my first wife was also while we were married, because she was a lesbian. I also have been abused because of my sexual orientation, and the abuser was none other than the man who was supposed to be my father. So that added to my anguish in trying to come to terms with who I am. It also led to a number of unhealthy relationships wherein I was used, abused, and taken for granted. It also led to a total of twelve attempts at suicide between the ages of 16 and 32, as well as 20 years of undiagnosed clinical depression. And yet, supposedly a heterosexual couple do a better job of raising children than a gay or lesbian couple would. In truth, the job of a parent is to love the children to the point that the children have roots for depth while also having wings with which to fly. You do not do this by teaching children hatred and bigotry aimed at people they do not know and therefoe do not understand. You do this by showing your children that they are loved for who they are, not what they acheive. You do not base your love for your child on whether your child follows you blindly in lockstep with a certain belief pattern that may no longer apply to the world at large. You give your child roots for depth and wings with which to fly by teaching your child to think for himself or herself. Yes, you give your child a rational basis from which to grow. Yes, you inform your child as to what you think is right and wrong. But you alo have to do more than just tal the talk. You have to walk the walk. I remember a public service announcement many years ago where a man is severely chiding his son after having found a kit used for intravenous drugs in the boy' room. The father asked is son where he learned to use something like that, and the boy replied, "Fom you, Dad. I learned it from watching you." So you see, no matter what you tell your chilren, they are going to go by how you act. If you go into something without thuse of critical thinking skills, without the maturity to be willing to examine another person's perspective, then you are teaching your children to follow any demagogue blindly, much the way the German people followed Hitler during the tim of the Third Reich. That ended with millions of Jews, Catholics, LGBTQQIA's, mentally and physically challenged people and people of color being executed as part of Hitler's "Final Solution." And the biggest irony of all this was the fact that Hitler was NOT German (he was Autrian), he was Jewish on his mother's side, and he was bisexual. So before you teach your children to blindly condemn someone for being different, you may want to consider that your chidren may be he ones who are different. You may also want to remember that "Normal" is only a settng on your washing machine. If you live long enough, and you g to enough places on G-d's green earth, you will meet at least one person who will find at least ne thing about you that is wierd, even to the point of being distasteful to that person, or even downright repugnant. You would also want to consider that when you point a fnger at someone else, you have three fingers pointing right back at you.

I am 47 years old now, and for only the scond time in my life, I have found someone whom I love and who loves me in return, and we are married. Not legally yet, but we are still married. And if you want to see what the gay lifestyle is all about in my house, I have a very long post on another thread here on this site that gives a very abbreviate outline of one week of my typical life. If you take the time to read it toroughly, you will probably see that it is more like your lifestyle than unlike it.

And while some of our comments on here may seem to be full of hate, they are not. The comments you see as hateful are actually comments that are our way of venting the very real agony we live with and are not allowed to express. How would you feel if you could legally be hunted won and beaten, even killed, simply for being honest about who you are? That is a big part of what we live with every day. We are not allowed to obtain LEGAL recognition for our marriages simply because some people have lied and said that there marriage would be harmed b ours. How would our marriages harm any solid marriages that are already in existence? How wold LEGALLY recognizing our families as families destroy families that are already in exxistence? How would allowing us to be open and free about who we are and who we love harm anyone else? Love is not harmful to anyone. Hatred is harmful to everyone. As for Constance, the kids at her school already knew about her and her girlfriend and were okay with it. It was not until the so-called adults decded to deny them their Constitutional rigts to free expression that the uproar began. And now, the vctim in this is being made out to be the villian. How is that fair?
101. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 5:48 am

to Melissa, I think you win the prize for getting the most responses to a post, I really hope you come back, if you're lurking this site is for you http://WWW.Child Honouring.org
102. JusB | March 14, 2010 at 5:56 am

Thanks Bob for keeping the conversation going and encouraging others to do the same.

Giving up is not an option. But the good fight cannot be won by lowering ourselves to the oppositions standards or stereotypes.

"We must not allow ourselves to become like the system we oppose. We cannot afford to use methods of which we will be ashamed when we look back, when we say, '…we shouldn't have done that.' We must remember, my friends, that we have been given a wonderful cause. The cause of freedom! And you and I must be those who will walk with heads held high. We will say, 'We used methods that can stand the harsh scrutiny of history.'"
-Bishop Desmond Tutu

Happy Days All!
Jus
103. Susan W | March 14, 2010 at 5:59 am

Thank you, ACLU! (I read the USA Today story and some of the comments. It is hard for LGBTQA folks who do not live in the SF area -and even for some who do. There are a lot of misinformed people out there – ACLU was called fascist, and other untruths.) Good grief. Homophobes fear seems to be endless. Again, thanx ACLU. Everybody = remember to pay membership fees, and lend support wherever we can.
104. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 6:11 am

Kathleen, I think I need your help again, I can't seem to post the correct websites, if you google the words childhonouring.org, it will bring you to the site, of the world's first centre for child honouring, created by Raffi, the Dali Lama, and the United Nations, it's quite an interesting place, and teaches a lot about the rights of children.
105. Ed-M | March 14, 2010 at 6:19 am

You are right, fern. And the hateros have taken over the Texas School Board of Education, pissing off the non-hatero minority to the point of walking out. Which suited the hateros' puropse just fine: they got to push their agenda into the state textbook standards. Because of the inordinate influence Texas schoolbook standards have on the rest of the country, what we have here is a tiny minority of fundievangelical dominionist types pushing their hate-filled agenda down every school student's throat. Yet they accuse US of pushing "The Gay Agenda" down everybody's throats. I have yet to receive a copy of this agenda from HRC, NGLTF, or Equality Louisiana….
106. Kathleen | March 14, 2010 at 6:33 am

Here you go. http://www.childhonouring.org/

For some reason, in your post, there's a space between Child and Honouring. That's what broke the link.
107. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 6:40 am

Hey, we're on the same page, I did kind of loose it though , I mean my vow of non violence, when I entertained thoughts of suicide, or homicide, love the straight ally giving me a kick in the butt.
And I'm going to loose it a bit more and admit my dream last night, we were in the school yard and the bully (pick one) made us get on our knees and lick his big dick……………………..
I got bullied a lot as a kid, so having detached sex from love, in lust I did a lot of role play around those scenarios, the way I triumphed ,was to go to the gym , work out, get butch, so I could be the bully on top. sorry for the loose lips

I love your quote from Tutu
108. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 6:43 am

Kathleen, you're an angel,

Melissa, I live five minutes from this centre, why don't you come down and check it out, you can stay at my house, it ain't much, but it's comfy, and we could play cards. cheers Bob
109. Ed-M | March 14, 2010 at 6:59 am

Wow. Where did you get your education, Melissa? Because whoever taught you was really derelict in their duty to teach you EMPATHY for your fellow human beings!

Kudos for Constance standing up for her right to be WHO SHE IS. And until the school committee intervened, her fellow students apparently had no problem with her being a lesbian. I suspect most still don't… but their parents REALLY have a problem with it, knowing Fulton, MS being in the Bible Belt and all.
110. Melissa | March 14, 2010 at 7:06 am

To Bob –

I'm not afraid of anything. It's funny how you can muddy up a term such as "common sense," and add complexity to a matter that is quite basic in my mind. So, you can call common sense a religion, if you want to make yourself correct about me being religious, but it's really just a matter of looking at the situation and assessing it from a very cut and dry perspective: men and women are a natural pairing. We know this because we know how babies are made. Because of this naturally-based pairing that makes children, society came up with the notion of making permanent these male-female baby-making pairings as a matter of providing security for the baby; providing for a nurturing mother and a father-provider. The concept of two-people bonding together is based on this natural reproduction together. It's why we have pairings instead of trios or more.

We know that male-male and female-female pairings do not produce offspring. That some males and some females want to pair up seems to be more of an imitation of male/female pairings. Otherwise, why would two men pair up and two women pair up? If they couldn't reproduce together, what is the impetus for pairs? And indeed, we know that men and women who are attracted to others of the same sex generally do not want to permanently pair up; it's counter to their lifestyle of sex for self-gratification, as opposed to sex for reproduction.

When you speak of fear, I think you think that I am afraid that my kids will turn out gay. I don't believe that they will. If they have any same-sex attractions, they will recognize those as ok (such as in male-bonding), but not appropriate for sexual activity, whether they recognize that innately or from my teaching them. Same-sex pairings such as these girls who want everyone to pay attention to them at the prom only serve to confuse the message to my kids.

Not unlike alcoholism or other addictions, I think that homosexuality is something that instead of embracing and trying to change society's perceptions about, we should be trying to fix it. We try to make alcoholics live normal lives even though they tell us that it's part of who they are; that they were born that way. We can handle the environmental influences that cause homosexuality through maintaining our heterosexual-based family-centered society, and surely the scientists whose research you hold in such high esteem can actually do something instead of report on something and modify the biological aspect that causes some people to want to have relations with the wrong sex.
111. David Kimble | March 14, 2010 at 7:26 am

Melissa, I can only conclude you must have an inferiority complex to continue to arrive at this site. Have you understood anything or anyone at this site? Did you watch the video posted by Straight Ally #308 @103. Additionally, you are not going to gain any converts at this site – we are all committed GLBT people, who believe in equality. The argument for Gay and Lesbian marriage is about equality. From my perspective and I could be wrong so please explain how I am wrong. I suspect you are not here to gain any underderstanding, but rather to engage in arguments wtih other people, who hold a differing view of the world from you. <3 David
112. Brandy | March 14, 2010 at 7:27 am

Melissa,
I LOVE my wife.. I love her! Can you stop worrying about the sex aspect of this?
I love her and want her protected and want her to be respected…
If we slept in separate rooms we would still love each other and need to be together.
You might as well not think of us as lesbian because we don't want to be with other women… we want to be with each other.
We got together when we were in high school… you know just some of those attention seeking freaks… 11 years later we are still together, never strayed.. never threatening your family!
113. David Kimble | March 14, 2010 at 7:34 am

oops, I didn't mean an inferiority complex, but rather a persecution complex. <3 David
114. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 7:36 am

"men and women are a natural pairing."……says who?……and not anymore honey get a reality check…..

"We know this because we know how babies are made."…..We know that test tube babies are a natural part of reality, life, and procreation….seriously get a reality check sweetie……

"roviding for a nurturing mother and a father-provider."……when you find my father….I'll be sure to tell him that….DUMB @$$……

"We know that male-male and female-female pairings do not produce offspring."……we do?……then what is surrogacy and in-vitro?…..2 men are together choose an egg donor tada….offspring……PWND….

"why would two men pair up and two women pair up?"……because of attraction and ummmm we love each other….If you really think that every person in the world only pairs up for the soul purpose of reproducing then you really do live in lala land….SO SAD!!!!….

"we know that men and women who are attracted to others of the same sex generally do not want to permanently pair up"…….that's a wide generalization…you know what goes on in the minds of all people?…….OMG people I think we may have a "Gay Whisperer"……..

"it’s counter to their lifestyle of sex for self-gratification,as opposed to sex for reproduction."…… so I guess you only have sex with your husband when you are having a baby….wow must be a whole lot of Hatero spawns running around in that household…..either that or your husband is getting it from some other place….. and again then why do straight people who cannot reproduce have sex?…..that's what I thought……

"I don’t believe that they will"…..what you believe has very little to do with reality sweetie….GROW UP!!!…..

"Same-sex pairings such as these girls who want everyone to pay attention to them at the prom only serve to confuse the message to my kids."………I wonder if thats what they said when a white man/woman wanted to be out in public with a white/man or woman…..oh waits thats exactly what my grandmother said to my mother before she disowned her….the only one seeking attention is HATERO BITCHES LIKE YOU SKANK……

"we should be trying to fix it."…..and there it goes this BITCH wants homosexuality to be illegal, force us to be straight…..SHUT THE FU<K UP YOU HATERO SWATZY <UNT……<3….Ronnie
115. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 7:38 am

Notice again like every other Hatero…….she ignores that LGBTQQIA people have kids also and that only the children of Hateros are important…..fu<king swatzy b!tch……<3….Ronnie
116. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 7:57 am

Reposting for the millionth time because a certain someone refuses to ignore everything….will she watch…I think not…but here it is anyway….<3….Ronnie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7m8BNx4uV4
117. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 8:31 am

Melissa so glad to hear from you, thanks for braving the negative reactions and backlash, I am encouraged by your strength and willingness to see beyond all that and express yourself.
I don't mean to muddy up or add complexity to a basic principle of thought. In fact I am trying to uncomplicate things in my own mind.
You see, I don't fit into the basic principle which you are so able to fully embrace. It is really very simple as you say, men and women make babies, they go together it is a natural ordering, or could we say, the way things usually work, and right you are in that society for generations has honored that as the only pairing.
It would be so very comfortable if that was it, pairings were not the only form of child rearing throughout history, there were trio's , and barren women allowed their husbands to sleep with slaves in order to procreate. There have been various diversions which were allowed for , solely for child bearing reasons.
Society did come up with the idea of making these pairings permanent, or at least that was the initial intention, but then society also came up with the notion of divorce, so these pairings could be terminated for the best interests of the couple and especially know also any children born from that pairing.
Is it common sense to think or say, if one of the couple becomes abusive, or molests someone in the family, it would be good to see divorce as a way of protecting the family from harm up to and including rape and murder.
Common sense then which brings the pair together could also be the same measure used to bring them apart.
The reason I paired up with my partner, a male, after many arguements just like the one's you are making, and much thought on my part, is because of LOVE, you see we love each other, it really is that simple, and that's just common sense for me. We had no other incentive for getting married than the fact that we love each other, and I might add, I'm sixty years old, we have been together for a long time, supporting each other, taking care of each other, at the present time, I am on palliative care, you know about hospitals and health care, pediatricians are there at the beginning of the life cycle, palliative care supports those at the other end of the spectrum, to deal with dying and end of life issues.
It was at this time that my step sister encouraged us to get married, now in terms of common sense, I was blessed with this step sister, by my mothers second marriage, and what a blessing it was to have someone in my life that did not come from a religious bent, well she went to the United Church as a child, and they accepted the gay issue back in the 60's. She doesn't attend and church nor feels the need to , she raised a loving family, and was the greatest example to me of what a loving parent could be.
It was through her acceptance that I experienced loving family. My step sister was waiting for a lung transplant, on oxygen, and I must say waiting for the lung, was just as intense as waiting for the verdict in the prop8 trial.
It was in that weakened state that she called me and said , this is none of my business, but I think you and David should get married. I said well we've been thinking about it a lot because I want the transition of property and benefits to be as easy as possible when I die, and marrying would definetly simplify that, and leave him the benefits of my pension.
So it was like that Melissa, it was because of love not because we wanted to imitate you and the blessings you share with your husband, or pretend we were anything other than what we are.
Not only that but my step sister insisted that we get married at her house and that she would host the party, because she said it would be a diversion for her from the stress of waiting for a lung..
I could not believe what she was offering, and it took some time to wrap my head around the concept, she was in a wheel chair and on oxygen. But I finally got it, and agreed on the condition that it would be only family, i.e. her children, so as not to complicate things for my biological family who's religious beliefs say it's wrong.
Melissa, her children are grown and we have nieces and nephews, the most amazing joyfull children which brought such joy to our day.
During the celebration as we sat looking at this wonderful family she had created I leaned over and whispered , did you get that opportunity to be the fly on the wall and admire this lovely family you created, while the attention is off of you, she held my hand, hers was frail but she was glowing and she said yes I did and thank you so much for lthe opportunity.
A few weeks later my step sister died, and we were all there with her when it happened, her oldest grandhild a boy of ten, came to be with her, he was so frightened when he came to the hospital, and after a while he took his place and held his grandmothers hand while she took her last breath. That was a wish fulfilled for her because she was diagnosed when he was born, so she lived long enough to see him grow up enough to share that part of her journey.
The whole process was all very common sense, which is what it amounts to when you come to the end of life, scientists, lung specialists dr.s loose their power and we're left to our own devices. Both her and I will face whatever comes if anything in the next life, including any judgements for participating, in a ritual of marriage, which some in this lifetime find offensive.
Melissa, we did it not to be offensive, ore to imitate you, or to make fun of your relationship, and family values.
We were just living out our own.
Wow that's way more than I thought I would say and maybe a little off topic, I don't know, so I think I will stop for now.
I would like to talk more with you about your comparison of sexual orientation to addictions, cause that's the same way my mother sees it.
Speaking of my mother the furthest she came to any change of thinking was to admit, her belief was marriage should be between a man and a women, but in her heart, she was happy I found someone to love who loves me back.
So maybe we could also talk a bit about that, difference between beliefs and what a mothe knows in her heart.
Cheers Bob
118. dieter | March 14, 2010 at 8:44 am

you just wasted that entire diatribe on that ignorant bitch.

let me explain to you who Melissa is.
She is a very large overweight and unattractive woman.
she never found someone to love her for who she is. only for a piece of desperation ass.

she is hated by her neighbors, and many in her own family.
she was never popular in school, and had few friends if any at all. she yells at her kids on a constant basis, to deal with her own life problems.
her poor kids will grow up resenting her, and most likely after 18 she will not hear from them again, and if so only on the rare occassion.

She is so miserable with her own pathetic life, that she has reached out in desperation to try and condemn others simply because it is the only way she can even TRY to feel better about her own failed life.

if she has any pets like a dog, I guarentee you that she smacks and kicks it.

her kids, in an effort to rebel from the horrible parenting they have been given will encounter the jail system at least once in their lives.
she is the kind of woman who would punch someone in the face and then complain that the victims face hurt her hand.

THAT IS MELISSA

and THAT is a fact!
119. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 8:46 am

Or she could just answer all the fu<king Q's and stop being a cherry picking lying Hatero selfish witch…..she doesn't talk with anybody she talks at us with copy and paste bull taken straight out of the NOM handbook…….If she would answer the q's then maybe we could respect her and have a dialogue….but no just more insults to who we are…when she decides to stop insulting us and a give a rational answer I will stop…..until then she can STFU……<3….Ronnie
120. David Kimble | March 14, 2010 at 10:31 am

Yes, it is of interst to note that Melissa does appear to have issues, which have been unresolved in her life. I have also noted, she chooses to cherry-pick who and what she will respond to – it reminds me of someone, who has little contact with our community, but feels compelled to interfere, as much as possible, just to keep the pot stirred! <3 David
121. David Kimble | March 14, 2010 at 10:35 am

Thanks, Bob! If you read my post at #116, I said much the same thing, as you. The battle for marriage is about one thing only – L-O-V-E! LOVE <3 David
122. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 10:57 am

Who on this site does not have issues,, we are all equal in that respect, and the proof is that the post keeps being stirred, if we were all enlightened pefected beings, none of this could touch us, but the anger expressed is a direct indication of how close to our core issues we're coming.
123. Sheryl | March 14, 2010 at 11:15 am

You are right, David, she does pick what she will respond to. I'm still waiting to hear how she would feel if her child was being discriminated against. Would she want her child to stand up for herself or to fade into the background and ensure that the discrimination would continue.

She has said so much that, as a parent, I find appalling, such as her children think how she teaches them to think. I hope that her children learn to think for themselves.

As for if her children had feelings toward the same sex the would know not to act on those feelings, what an awful life she wants for them. To stifle who they really are so that mom and or dad won't be embarrassed by them.

As for why two people of the same sex would want to get married since they cannot produce children together, guess she only married her husband so that she could have children. No attraction, no love (what an awful life she must live). In addition to love, there are the legal issues, gays and lesbians want their loved ones protected and afforded the same benefits that society bestows upon opposite sex married couples — recognition in all states of their marriage, the tax benefits, Social Security, etc.

Bob, thank you so much for sharing your story. What a wonderful stepsister you had.

Sheryl
124. Richard A. Walter (s | March 14, 2010 at 11:44 am

Truth be told, I am wondering if this "Melissa" is simply another handle taken on by our "favorite" troll, "Kay Moore", or by "George". The diatribes seem to be so eerily similar.
125. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 11:56 am

I'm not going there…..no comment….I plead the 1st, 5th, and 14th amendments….<3….Ronnie
126. Melissa | March 14, 2010 at 1:19 pm

To Bob –

That was a lovely story about your stepsister, and I understand why you told it. She sounded like a special person, and she was the only family member that seemed to understand your relationship with your partner. You sound like a very nice man.

I respond only to you because you are the only one who hasn't acted with intense hatred towards me. To those who say I cherry pick the questions that I answer, it's because the questions that are asked are irrelevant to my belief that homosexuality is a disorder. So, the fact that heterosexual couples get divorced or that there is in-vitro fertilization does not change the basic fact that homosexual pairings are unnatural. I think marriage has been made a mess of over the years, but that doesn't mean we should continue to chip away at it or turn it into something totally removed from its very essence of male-female unity.

If a person wants to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, fine, but I don't think it should be encouraged or considered normal. I think we should encourage heterosexual unions, especially to young people so that they can experience the joy of finding a member of the opposite sex and have children together.

Some alcoholics don't believe that they have a problem; they don't want to change. I believe that many people who are attracted to the same sex are that way, too. They don't want to change and they convince themselves, encouraged by others who refuse to change, that they cannot change or they just refuse to change.
127. dieter | March 14, 2010 at 1:36 pm

fuck you.
128. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 1:44 pm

To Melissa

STFU…..You are a complete MORON if you DO NOT know the difference between Hate and anger….HATERO B!TCH….

You think you can say that who we are is a a disorder…a complete insult to us and then expect us to speak nicely to you….you'r out of your narrow little Hatero mind…you dumb Hatero…..

"homosexual pairings are unnatural"…..says who you stupid <unt?……

You think you have the right to tell me how to live my life?…..if that is true then I have the same right to do that to you…..STFU you Hatero swatzy….

"I think we should encourage"…you mean force by passing laws to do so

I think that you should STFU and mind your own god damn business you imbecile….what about what I think?….are my opinions less important then yours?

STOP BEING A FU<KING UNEDUCATED TROLL AND ANSWER THE FU<KING QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!……

Some Hateros don’t believe that they have a problem; they don’t want to change. I believe that many Hateros who think they have the right to tell other people how to live their lives are that way, too. They don’t want to change and they convince themselves, encouraged by others who refuse to change, that they cannot change or they just refuse to change……you know like YOU…you Hatero B!TCH!…..

You're a disorder you idiot….what makes your beliefs more important then mine?…..What makes your beliefs more worthy of respect then mine?……Do you pay my bills?….Do you pay my rent?…..Do you provide food and cloths for me?…..NO!!!!!!!!…. When you do that for me….then maybe you have a right to me how to live my life…you Nazi whore……

You have not said one god damn thing that is not considered anti-gay….Your in the wrong place honey…Like I said this a public forum…there are no private discussions there is no A & B here….so if thats what you want….C yourself out and into a chat room where you can have a private conversation…..

I don't see you denying any of the accusations….FU<K OFF!!!!!!!……..B!TCH!!!!!!!!!
129. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 2:01 pm

To Melissa….you want to be apart of this community then do the following:

1. When someone….anyone…asks you Q…answer it. When you don't you look like a fool that doesn't know the answer…..Don't play the victim….you don't do it well….you came here saying that who we are is a disorder…yes those are such beautiful words of love…NOT!!!!!!!!….you came here calling us unnatural….yes those are such beautiful words of love and not HATE………NOT!!!!!!!!!

2. When a human is accused of wanting LGBTQQIA to be illegal and condoning murder and gay bashing, but does't believe that….typically their conscience tells them "I should let them know the truth"

3. When someone says you insulted them by calling them a disorder….If you where human and had a heart…you would apologize.

4. You obviously are not enjoying the way we are talking to you….but how do you think we feel….oh wait we told you and you ignored our feelings because apparently only yours are important….selfish b!tch.

5. Once again you ignore that not all straight people can have children….well then they can't get married either…they can't have sex….they can't date…ect ect ect….YOU ARE TALKING NOM COPY & PASTE HATERO….aka….a HOMOPHOBE….<3…Ronnie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBxozhnc1Gc
130. JusB | March 14, 2010 at 2:24 pm

Hi Melissa-

Homosexuality has existed and been documented in nearly every segment of all societies throughout time. Although this orientation has not been in the majority does not mean that it doesn’t occur as naturally as the heterosexual orientation does. If your definition of “natural” is the conventional one of being found within nature or the observable world, we can safely say that (as illustrated in the wonderful video that Ronnie posted back at #118) homosexual behavior has been exhibited and observed in over 1500 species, which include almost all homo sapiens (the species that humans belong to). ¬

Unfortunately, the examples and definitions of “disorder” that you are presenting are not consistent with the clinically substantiated definitions, which in short state that a disorder disrupts and causes negative effects on a person in the social, emotional, and occupational areas of their life. Note that this diagnosis pertains to the individual’s experiences, feelings, and perceptions not the experiences feelings and perceptions of the person making the diagnosis or an outside party.

Along those same lines, in regards to addiction, it is true that some alcoholics do not believe that they have a problem. But once again, once the dependence starts to negatively impact multiple areas of a person’s life, such as their ability to work/hold a job, maintain relationships, and function as a productive member of society then that person can be, and usually is considered an addict.

From this we can see that homosexuality does not fall under the umbrella of a “disorder” nor can it be considered in the same category as an “addiction.”

As far as people not wanting to change, I will interject a short personal story:
I realized I may be gay at a young age. I didn’t want to believe it. I didn’t like it. More than anything I did not want to be gay. I spent 7 long, lonely, depressed years trying with every fiber of my being, and every prayer I could muster not to be gay. It wasn’t someone of a homosexual orientation who “refused to change” that helped me accept who I was and enjoy being me. It was a community of faith that pulled me out of a self-hating depression and helped me to believe that I am ok, acceptable, worthy, and capable to give and receive love.

Joy comes with the love in any relationship, not just heterosexual ones.

Happy Days!
Jus
131. Ronnie | March 14, 2010 at 2:29 pm

Another thing…If the Q's are asking you directly about what you believe….how are they irrelevant to what you believe?

Why is what you believe more important then what I believe?….I've asked you this several times….everyone asked you this…..Bob asked you this…you haven't answered it……

Stop calling us unnatural….stop saying we are not normal….stop saying that we have a disorder….and maybe we will stop calling you the things that you really are…..

Melissa….I believe you are unnatural….I believe that you are not "normal"….I believe that you have a disorder….I believe that since you came into a Pro-LGBTQQIA Advocacy blog that you are the one that is attention seeking…..

Definition of angry – –noun
1. a strong feeling of displeasure and belligerence aroused by a wrong; wrath; ire.
2. Chiefly British Dialect. pain or smart, as of a sore.
3. Obsolete. grief; trouble.
–verb (used with object)
4. to arouse anger or wrath in.
5. Chiefly British Dialect. to cause to smart; inflame.
–verb (used without object)
6. to become angry: He angers with little provocation.

I don't hate Hateros….which I have already said…when you said what you said It made me angry…and I told you that….If you don't like it…to bad sweetie…GROW UP and Get over yourself…

so again I ask…… but you won't answer them…all you will do is insult and spread more words of hate…..Why are your beliefs more important then mine?….Why are your rights more important then mine?…..Why are your feelings more important then mine?….all 3 of those are directly relevant Q's about your beliefs….but you won't answer them…all you will do is insult and spread more words of hate…..

De
132. Kathleen | March 14, 2010 at 2:30 pm

dieter, are you on facebook? if so, willing to accept friend requests from p8TTers?
133. Sheryl | March 14, 2010 at 2:51 pm

Richard, as soon as she brought up the "purpose of marriage is to have children" George came to my mind, also.

Sheryl
134. dieter | March 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm

@ Kathleen
yes I am on facebook, but I don't give out my info because I fear that someone like Melissa will bombard me with her stupid ass ideas about life, and I will end up in jail for hunting her down and disemboweling the bitch.
and since I am a candidate for California redistricting commisioner, I don't think I should go to prison just yet.
135. Bob | March 14, 2010 at 3:23 pm

Hi Melissa, thanks for reading my story, it was written in attempts to explain why I paired up with another man, did you understand that part? We were living together and loving each other, it's quiet simple. Canadians have come to agree that two people who love each other have legal entitlement to create a home and family to love and support each other in a union called marriage with all the benefits. We chose to take advantage of that union.
You shared a stereotype of gay people which has become part of your belief system, being that gay people pair only for sexual enjoyment, and have no desire to maitain a lifetime relationship. This is a myth or mistaken belief, ,stemming from a time where we had no options but undercover connections in dark places out of the public eye.
I understand that you prefer it that way, and would wish for me to be alone, so that your belief system would not be challenged.

And that's what is happening, with the same sex marriage issues, and the girls at the prom. You said you had no fears, but then you went on to say, if your children see this behavior, it may expose them to something you don't want them to see. Please spend some time on that thought, you must have some fear there or you wouldn't say that.
You also said you believe your children will grow up knowing that same sex attraction is wrong wether inately or through your teaching. But if that's true for you, then it makes no matter if they see a same sex couple or not.
The thing about beliefs Melissa is that they must be held to firmly in order to protect them, because beliefs are always challenged, and as seen from this site the stronger they are callenged the more firmly entrenched they become.
You said the reason you don't answer other peoples questions is because the questions they ask are irrelevant to your belief that homosexuality is a disorder, and please think about that very carfully. Because the threat to taking up some of those questions is that it just might cause you to change some of what you believe.
I'm not telling you to change your belief system, I'm saying doing what you are doing is just keeping you in your own comfort zone. But there must be some reason you are talking to me.
I would encourage you to continue believing in yourself and your school of common sense, it means you are looking inside yourself for answeres, and as I mentioned in my story, we all have to do that, when life throws us a curve ball, we have to reach inside and believe in ourselves, in spite of what others think.
I think this has worked for you , and hopefully you won't have any curve balls, to challenge your beliefs, becuase that is what life is about. reacting to new information that forces us to either expand our beliefs, maybe even abandon some as outdated and useless. or retreat into a unhealthy lifestyle of controlling the world around us to protect our beliefs.
Remember Hitlers belief that the world would be a better place without the Natzi's, he stuck to that belief, convinced his fellow citizens of that belief, and acted on it. (beliefs can be wrong), or do you agee with Hitler.
How far does your belief go Melissa, do you think the world would be a better place without homosexuals, should we follow the direction Uganda is atttempting, and use the death penalty to shield you and your childrens eyes from people like me.
Does your belief go so far as to say that if one of your children were gay,(I know you believe they aren't) but just play along with this thought, because all gay children were born of heterosexual parents, and you definetly have taken every precaution to avoid that possibility, but if it happened would you atttempt to force them into reparative therapy to correct the disorder.
Melissa, do you know anyone other than me who is gay, what contact have you had with gay people, what is your family history in that regard, and where any of your family members religious? are you an atheist? do you have any faith system?
Thanks I look forward to hearing back from you
136. Kathleen | March 14, 2010 at 3:23 pm

@dieter. I'm easy to find on facebook. Go to the "Prop 8 Trial Trackers" facebook page and I'm "Kathleen Perrin" who's posted on the wall there. If you'd like, send me a friend request. Would love to add you to my friends there.
137. Kathleen | March 14, 2010 at 3:38 pm

Should have said – no pressure! I won't be offended if you take a pass.
138. Richard A. Walter (s | March 14, 2010 at 10:29 pm

Melissa, your attitudes toward the LGBTQQIA's here are so very much like HItler's attitudes toward anyone who was Jewish, not blond-haired and blue-eyed, was LGBTQQI, was physically infirm, was mentally challenged, or anyone who was not of his "Master RAce" that was supposed to rule the world. Did you know that people actually had to go before a council and be evaluated to make sure they matched Hitler's plan for the master race before they wereallowed to get married an have children? Did you know that if you married against the laws established by der Fuhrer that you could be thrown in prison as "a defiler of the race"? Did you know that this could more thn likely lead to your death in one of the Concentration Camps? Is this the life you want your children to have to lead? Or do you want your children to be happy, well-adjusted adults who know how to think for themselves? And are you afraid to come out of the closet and admit that you are either "TEam George" or "TEam Kay" and that your sole purpose here is to attack, degade, misinform, and vilify everyone here who does not kowtow and cater to your outdated, oversimplified, moronic way of thinking that no longer has any relevance to the world in which we live. And if I do not receive an answer to these questions, which are ENTIRELY relevant to what you have been so insistent upon spouting at this site, then you will have answered in that way also, and you will be admitting that everything I and Ronnie and everyone else you have ignored has said is 100% true, and that you deserve only the pity of those who know the truth and have been set free.
139. Melissa | March 14, 2010 at 11:13 pm

This is a busy work week for me so I probably won't be able to post anymore comments.

I don't advocate violence against homosexuals. There are those who will insist on staying on that course of their life, and I wouldn't try to stop them, but I wouldn't encourage it either, and that's how I see the prom issue. If those girls have decided to not try to find a male partner, I think it's a shame for them, but that doesn't mean that because that's the road they've chosen that we should encourage it and show it off to others who are struggling to find partners that this is a normal alternative.

I have a gay cousin, well I'm pretty sure he is. He has never said that he is gay, but he has lived with another man for many years now and he brings this man with him to family functions. My kids know him and have asked about his "friend," and we tell them that he is his good friend. Neither of them wears women's clothing to family functions, and the nature of their relationship is never discussed. Both of them are kind of feminine in their demeanor, and that suggests to me that they each could have found a woman to pair with, but they decided not to. Why they decided not to I can't say, but perhaps that they like gay sex has something to do with it.

I was brought up Catholic but I don't practice. No one ever preached to me growing up that homosexuality was a sin or anything like that. As I said, you don't have to be taught everything in this life; some things are common sense.

Oh, and to Ronnie who seems to hate me so much, I don't know if my opinions are better than yours, but my basic premise about the naturalness of heterosexuality is based on an objective fact of human biology. We can mess with nature all we want, but it doesn't change what's natural. And those other animals that engage in homosexual acts, they are disordered, as well.

I really only stopped here to say that I understand the parents' position on this prom issue. I didn't expect to get into a big discussion, but it sounded like you were trying to understand something that I apparently hadn't made clear.

I'll try to stop back later, but I can't make any promises.
140. Ronnie | March 15, 2010 at 12:04 am

YEAH!!!!….what he said……<3…Ronnie
141. Rightthingtodo TX | March 15, 2010 at 12:19 am

I don’t advocate violence against homosexuals.

What do you think your position is?
142. rf | March 15, 2010 at 12:20 am

Melissa,

Here's an "objective fact" that made its way into the American court system:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Taking God out of this statement, it is an objective fact, based on cursory observation, that different races were, and continue to be, on different continents. Once you dig any deeper however, scientific study, research and common sense (like that this statement comes from the mind of a white judge who lives in America where God did not place his ancestors) dictates that this "fact" and any natural or legal argument based on it is actually completely baseless.

A few observations (either objective or subjective) do not a comprehensive study of human biology make.

The queers are all around you! and one day we will know if we are 5%, 10%, 20% or more of the population of the world. Whites are about 17%. I think the B puts us well over 20%. And at just 10%, every family of 5 has a 50-50 shot of sitting to dinner with a queer every night.

And forget about your stupid children being gay. The person you lie in bed with can be gay, or bi, or trans…and with an attitude like yours, you will never really know…
143. dieter | March 15, 2010 at 12:21 am

Get gun
Place in mouth
Pull trigger
Repeat if necessary
144. Ronnie | March 15, 2010 at 1:05 am

Good don't post any more comments ever if you insist on insulting us…you Hatero b!tch……..

"If those girls have decided to not try to find a male partner,"…………….IT'S NOT A FU<KING CHOICE YOU UNEDUCATED WHORE……….I didn't choose to be gay…and stop telling me WHAT I CHOSE……you are not a fu<king mind reader….how would you like if you were FORCED to go to the prom with someone you don't want to?…..How would you like to be forced to live a certain way?……

"I don’t advocate violence against homosexuals"………. anything that is anti-gay is violence towards us…..you just don't want to accept that because that is not what YOU BELIEVE…..you stupid cow…….

"I think it’s a shame for them,"……..I think its a shame that you feel the need to degrade people……..

"that this is a normal alternative."………there you go again with telling us that we are not normal….FU<K OFF YOU GOD DAME SWATZY TRIPLE K HATERO B!TCH…….what is a normal alternative?…..Living a lie?…..learning to hate yourself so much that you kill yourself?…….FU<K YOU!!!!!!…..

"He has never said that he is gay"………IF that is true…..it's because of the way you are talking to us…correction… at us….that he wouldn't tell you…..Who wants to hear from their blood relation…"You are unnatural"……"You are not normal"….Do you like people saying that to you?….Do you like people calling you unnatural?……Do you like people calling you not normal?…..

"that suggests to me that they each could have found a woman to pair with,"…..sooooo in your delusional little world…..in order to pair off with a woman a man has to be kind of feminine in their demeanor?…..ummmm…honey…….. your husband's GAY……..

"Why they decided not to I can’t say, but perhaps that they like gay sex has something to do with it."…..when you ASSume things you make in ASS out of yourself…..and ummmm….I REALIZED I was gay when I was 14 without having gay sex….seriously Melissa are you psychic?…..Do you read minds?…..when did you decide that you were attracted to men?…….

"Oh, and to Ronnie who seems to hate me so much"…..that's funny I said I don't hate you because I can't hate someone I DON'T EVEN KNOW…I said I was angry at you for insulting me….you see people…again this imbecile does NOT know the diff. btw. Hate and anger…and ignore that i said I don't hate you…..SO SAD!!!!…….

"I don’t know if my opinions are better than yours, but my basic premise about the naturalness of heterosexuality is based on an objective fact of human biology"………..Then why are your opinions deserving of more rights then mine?……Every thing you state is that if I do not live the way you deem "normal"…..that I should be pushed aside….that I should allow you to call me unnatural….Who the fu<k do you think you are?…..You're not my fu<king mother….you can't tell me who to love…..you can't tell me where to go…..so really who the fu<k do you think you are?……Hormones and testosterone are apart of human biology…..and my natural body, heart, and brain says "I LOVE MEN"….If you don't like it….to bad…get over it….and mind your own fu<king business…..and again you ignore that there are straight people who cannot reproduce….therefore based on your uneducated NOM produced theory…they can't have sex either…..they can't get married…..and they can't go to parties together……

There you go again calling us unnatural and and saying that we have a disorder….Yes those are words of love and not hate….NOT!!!!…..seriously Melissa,…..do you enjoy people calling you unnatural….you unnatural B!tch?……Do you enjoy people saying that you are not normal…..you not normal BIGOT?……..Do you enjoy people saying that you are and have a disorder…..which you are and you do?………

"I really only stopped here to say that I understand the parents’ position on this prom issue."…….Then why did you add all the insults and degrading character assessments…..over and over and over again?…..What about Constance's parents?….they want to go to her prom with her girlfriend…..why aren't positions on this important?….They pay the taxes for that PUBLIC school also…you spoke your not so peace….now go away…

again it all comes down to…..you Hateros only care about your opinions….they are the only ones that deserve rights and respect…GAG ME!!!!

So I will ask you again….why are your feelings mor important then mine?…..why are your rights more important then mine?…why are your opinions more important then mine?…..why are your beliefs more important then mine?…..why do you deserve more rights then me?….Why do you deserve to be happy in whatever way you are and I'm not?…..why do you deserve to call me names and insult me but i'm not aloud to return the gesture?……..

Don't give me that natural shite….I believe in nature…I love the Earth….I respect Earth….you can ask anybody on this site how I said that I honor Gaia…Give me a fu<king a honest answer….1 for each question asked…nothing that contains an insult…I've pointed out to you that calling me and us those things makes me angry and yet you continue to do it….google the term cyber Troll…that is what you are doing…and its a federal crime……

"I’ll try to stop back later, but I can’t make any promises."……I'll be waiting with abated breath….NOT!!….If you do choose to come back… don't insult us….show some fu<king respect….apologize for treating us like garbage and maybe I will apologize for some of the things I called you….or else just don't come back…<3….Ronnie
145. Bob | March 15, 2010 at 2:13 am

Hi Melissa, thanks for answering my question about where you stand regarding violence against gays, you don't advocate it nor would you stop those who do. This puts you clearly on the side of those who would do violence toward me. and your family (gay cousin)
You could of taken another position which would be not advocating violence against us, at the same time as not speaking out negatively about Constance and her choice.
You have made your point about where you stand presently on this issue, (agreeing with the mothers who are outraged at an open display of difference in sexual orientation), which happens to be a natural part of human makeup, although you would rather it wasn't.
You've done a great job of voicing that opinion, in an appropriate place, ensuring that point would be brought home to those of us who think differently, well done, and you can see how much it angers us.
Fortunately, the laws which protect us and the decisions that go into creating them (I'm speaking specifically now of Judge Walker, contemplating his decision) will not even be considering, such fear based misguided opinions, or the category of the population you place yourself in. Free thinkers choose to fend for themselves and history has proven, although you may not like it eventually you will stretch your mind to get around and accomodate this change in society. Thanks also for admitting your Catholic background, I think whatever you think has been more influenced by that exposure than you think. And I would encourage you to consider how much your thinking has been brainwashed by that exposure, such a poweful thing it is. I'm sure you wouldn't want your common sense to be coming from that indoctrination. I could suggest some good books to read. Doesn't it anger you that the Church actually is involved in such a powerfull way with the gov't that they influence our laws according to their doctrine. Maybe we share that in common.
Thanks for honestly answering my question and disclosing where your family is touched by gay people.Your cousin, and his partner. Sounds like you have already made some accomodations around that, I'm glad to know they sit at your table, and your children know and see them, an indication that gives me a little hope, you may not be as controlling as I thought with your children.
If you were you would not allow your cousin and his partner to expose themselves to your children, pretty simple eh, to explain they're just close friends. I don't know the age of your children but as they grow up, they wouldn't need your explanation, it will be obvious, and how fortunate they are to have a mother that includes a gay cousin and his partner for dinner.
Your opinions and your actions here are different, thank goodness your actions speak louder.
As for them not wearing dresses to dinner, do you think that's what gay men do. Because that's simply not true, oh sometimes we cross dress, and some of us like to do drag, which means impersonating females in shows etc. which you may have seen on T.V. or in the news. But all gays are not cross dressers.
Melissa would you do me a favour, invite your cousin over for tea, when you can be alone, and see if you can get to know him remember though that if he is in the closet (you know, not open) it will be as difficult for him as it is for you, but try and start a conversation, it would be amazing if you could ask him all the questions you have and get to know him as the person he is, and let go of the assumptions you have aout him.
Thanks for opening up, I look forward to further communication cheers Bob
146. Pam | March 15, 2010 at 2:16 am

What bothers me most about Melissa's comments about her cousin is the lack of concern for his happiness or interest in his relationship. She doesn't know whether he is gay–that tells me that they probably don't share more than comments about the weather, and that he may know it's not safe to talk with her about his real life. She doesn't understand that a relationship may be based on far more than sex or procreation, or even that love/companionship/trust/understanding comprise the underpinnings of such a relationship. I do think that she only keeps visiting this website in order to get attention or a reaction. But I pity her for believing that relationships are all about sex and procreation. Love is natural, and so is same-sex attraction. My spouse of 12 years and I are a functioning family, and neither she nor I have ever wanted to have children. We work hard in our fields, and love each other and our relatives and extended family very much. There is nothing disordered in our relationship, just love & trust–a condition I would wish everyone could experience!
147. Ronnie | March 15, 2010 at 2:17 am

Oh and everybody maybe "Melissa" should start a natural only revolution….let us count the ways:

1. Cesarian Child Birth – not natural – banned
2. Wearing glasses to correct bad eye site – not natural – banned
3. Tattoos – not natural – banned
4. Piercings – not natural – banned
5. Clothing – not natural – banned
6. Hair product – not natural – banned
7. Shoes – not natural – banned
8. Makeup – not natural – banned
9. Deodorant and soap – not natural – banned
10. Watches and jewelry – not natural – banned
11. Adoption and foster care – not natural – banned
12. Plastic surgery and Botox – not natural – banned
13. Technology – not natural – banned
14. Condoms – not natural – banned
15. TV/Movies – not natural – banned
16. Birth control – not natural – banned
17. Toys – not natural – banned
18. Bridges – not natural – banned
19. Buildings, Houses, Apartments, Elevators ect ect – not natural – banned
20. Trains, Cars, Busses, Bikes, Planes, Boats – not natural – banned
21. Dyeing your hair – not natural – banned
22. Photographs – not natural – banned
23. Processed cheese – not natural – banned
24. Ligars – not natural – banned
25. Zoos – not natural – banned
26. Medication – not natural – banned
27. Flushing Toilets – not natural – banned
28. Electricity – not natural – banned
29. Air conditioning – not natural – banned
30. Cell phones and land lines – not natural

There's a whole lot more but this should suffice for now….<3…Ronnie
148. Dave T | March 15, 2010 at 2:21 am

I'm coming to this party a little late, but I think it's important to point out that there are legitimate questions about Melissa's parenting that others have addressed here.

My kids think what I teach them to think and based on how I teach then to think. They love my husband and me, and when they are faced with a situation that they do not understand, they consult with us to try and understand. They do not resort to their friends and teachers as their source of right and wrong, as many “evolving” kids do. Bad parenting is half the problem with kids today. Absent fathers, TV babysitters, and a lack of discipline are but a few of the reasons that many kids today get their social educations from the television, magazines, and their friends.

With respect to the first highlighted section of the quote, the picture I get from this is of a controlling parent. Now, I suspect that Melissa was actually trying to say something different, but I'm not sure what.

With respect to the second highlighted section, it appears Melissa has her head in the sand. Just last night I was reading about some researchers who suggest that almost all of what children learn about language comes from peers, not from parents. I'm afraid I don't have a reference at hand, but I read a discussion of this in the closing pages of The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker (complete references can be found there). Now, if children are learning most of their language skills from peers, it seems likely to me that most of their knowledge of social situations and skills probably also comes from peers. Not to mention that the widest range of social situations to which they will be exposed will be amongst peers – after all, they only have one or two parents with whom they interact, compared with a limitless number of friends, teachers, strangers, etc.
149. Dave T | March 15, 2010 at 2:37 am

we are all committed GLBT people, who believe in equality

Well, not all… some of us are committed straight people, who believe in equality
150. Dave T | March 15, 2010 at 3:00 am

This is perhaps a little OT, but it addresses something Melissa claimed.

She (and others like her) claim that it's "common sense" that men & women are meant to be together.

It has been my experience that claiming something is "common sense" is usually a signal that the person hasn't spent much (any) time thinking about it. In addition, people tend to assume that their version of common sense is the same as everyone else's, which very often is not the case.

Finally, JusB has discussed the definition of "disorder". There's a tendency in the United States to dismiss discussions of this type as unimportant or "mere semantics". The reason discussions like that are important is very simple: if JusB means one thing when he says "disorder" and Melissa means something different, then they are not really talking about the same thing and any discussion is ultimately pointless.

So, Melissa, if you come back & read more comments, let me suggest two things to you:

1) Take the time to seriously think about what you believe. Ask yourself why you believe those things, where those beliefs came from (and if the source is one you can trust), and what it means (in terms of your own actions) to believe those things. And any time you find yourself answering "it's just common sense" or "it's obvious", that's a signal to you to keep pushing.

2) Consider JusB's discussion of disorders. Some very smart people have very good reasons for defining that word the way they do – you can either accept it and discuss homosexuality on those terms, or you can provide your own definition (and be prepared to defend it and show why it's the definition we should use).
151. Rightthingtodo TX | March 15, 2010 at 4:58 am

willful ignorance constitutes violence if it causes harm

so call it what you will (not thinking things through, etc) but it's still violence
152. fiona64 | March 16, 2010 at 3:10 am

Why would you not want your children to be aware that some kids are gay and some kids are straight? The only people I see being disruptive and silly are the bigots who want to force our LGBT fellow citizens back into the closet.

Love,
Fiona
153. fiona64 | March 16, 2010 at 3:13 am

Melissa wrote: I think these kids have a disorder that they need to resolve through their free will, but changing the rules to accomodate them only encourages them to not try to resolve their issues.

Gosh, Melissa. I'm wondering when you chose to be straight. I didn't; I just knew that Paul McCartney was cuter than Petula Clarke. There was no choosing involved.

Since you think that being gay is a choice, it's obviously one you have faced. So, I'm curious to know when you chose to be straight. Perhaps you can also share the criteria you applied.

Love,
Fiona
154. fiona64 | March 16, 2010 at 3:29 am

Hmm. I'm childfree. I had my tubes tied long before I met my husband. I guess we're not really married, since we've chosen not to have kids?

Guess what, Melissa? Plenty of gay and lesbian couples have kids. Plenty of straight couples don't. There is more to being a couple than having children.

Love,
Fiona
155. Kathleen | March 16, 2010 at 3:51 am

fiona64 wrote: "I just knew that Paul McCartney was cuter than Petula Clarke"

I just wanted to set the record straight: George Harrison was cuter than Paul McCartney.
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