Comments on: Love Wins http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=love-wins Perry v. Schwarzenegger: Tracking the right-wing Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:19:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: mayans 2012 http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219328 mayans 2012 Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:27:55 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219328 Whoa! This blog looks just like my old one! It's on a completely different topic but it has pretty much the same page layout and design. Wonderful choice of colors! Whoa! This blog looks just like my old one! It's on a completely different topic but it has pretty much the same page layout and design. Wonderful choice of colors!

]]> By: ASW http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219327 ASW Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:31:51 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219327 In a related vein, my HS friend Greg and his fiancee Jonathan got their license in DC on the 5th. And they're still in 2nd place at the Crate & Barrel Ultimate Wedding contest: <a href="http://gayultimatewedding.com" rel="nofollow">http://gayultimatewedding.com</a> Worth a read/registration/vote for equality. In a related vein, my HS friend Greg and his fiancee Jonathan got their license in DC on the 5th.

And they're still in 2nd place at the Crate & Barrel Ultimate Wedding contest:
http://gayultimatewedding.com

Worth a read/registration/vote for equality.

]]> By: Roger http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219326 Roger Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:23:34 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219326 Kirill, I don't know..... The French system -- and it's been in place for a couple of centuries now - strikes me as a sensible one. If the State contracts to provide certain benefits to married people, then it's logical for the State to oversee and verify the contract that brings a particular marriage into being. And logical that it doesn't presume to give <i>God's</i> blessing on it, either directly or by delegation. In this respect, separation of Church and State is absolute. But if people want God's blessing, there is nothing to stop them making their vows before Him in whatever church, mosque, temple, synagogue or rose garden they please -- but they must also enter into the prescribed legal contract with the State. And this brings up a distinction that is often lost, especially on the "traditonaists" who snigger "and which of you two guys is going to wear the white veil?" A wedding is not the same as a marriage. Kirill, I don't know….. The French system — and it's been in place for a couple of centuries now – strikes me as a sensible one.

If the State contracts to provide certain benefits to married people, then it's logical for the State to oversee and verify the contract that brings a particular marriage into being. And logical that it doesn't presume to give God's blessing on it, either directly or by delegation. In this respect, separation of Church and State is absolute.

But if people want God's blessing, there is nothing to stop them making their vows before Him in whatever church, mosque, temple, synagogue or rose garden they please — but they must also enter into the prescribed legal contract with the State.

And this brings up a distinction that is often lost, especially on the "traditonaists" who snigger "and which of you two guys is going to wear the white veil?" A wedding is not the same as a marriage.

]]> By: K!r!lleXXI http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219325 K!r!lleXXI Sun, 07 Mar 2010 05:14:17 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219325 @Roger Same goes about Russia: every marriage must be performed only in a Registrar building by the city clerk, no delegations are allowed... and you have to wait for a month or two after you apply for marriage... This is way too strict, I think... American system is easier and more flexible — you can have a ceremony anywhere you want and anyone you want can officiate... this part I was always envious of... It's not a bad thing to have all these freedoms, as long as people do understand that civil marriage is not the same as religious one. --Kirill @Roger
Same goes about Russia: every marriage must be performed only in a Registrar building by the city clerk, no delegations are allowed… and you have to wait for a month or two after you apply for marriage… This is way too strict, I think… American system is easier and more flexible — you can have a ceremony anywhere you want and anyone you want can officiate… this part I was always envious of… It's not a bad thing to have all these freedoms, as long as people do understand that civil marriage is not the same as religious one.

–Kirill

]]> By: Roger http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219324 Roger Sun, 07 Mar 2010 03:46:44 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219324 I had always understood that French law only recognises civil marriages, and that having a separate religious ceremony was entirely optional, but I thought I'd better look it up. <i>Voila!</i> from the French Embassy in Australia -- <i>To be legally recognized, a marriage in France must take place at a town hall (Mairie). The town hall must be either the town hall where one of the applicants was born, or the town hall of the district where one of the applicants is currently resident.</i> And from <a href="http://brittany.angloinfo.com/countries/france/marriage.asp" rel="nofollow">http://brittany.angloinfo.com/countries/france/ma...</a> <i>French law only recognises civil marriage. This must be performed by a French Civil Authority (officier de l'état civil), which includes the mayor (maire), their legally authorised replacement - the deputy mayor (adjoint) - or a city councillor (conseiller municipal). Religious ceremonies are optional, have no legal status, and may only be held after the civil ceremony has taken place (which can, but need not be, on the same day.) </i> All of which seems very sensible to me; none of this nonsense of the State delegating clergy as its agents.... Yes, it's for mixed-gender couples only, but the French do have the equivalent of civil unions. Again from the Embassy's page -- PACS Pacs is a legal protocol in France that formally recognises both opposite sex and same sex de facto relationships. The requirements for a PACS are the same as those for a marriage.... I had always understood that French law only recognises civil marriages, and that having a separate religious ceremony was entirely optional, but I thought I'd better look it up.

Voila! from the French Embassy in Australia —

To be legally recognized, a marriage in France must take place at a town hall (Mairie). The town hall must be either the town hall where one of the applicants was born, or the town hall of the district where one of the applicants is currently resident.

And from http://brittany.angloinfo.com/countries/france/ma…

French law only recognises civil marriage. This must be performed by a French Civil Authority (officier de l'état civil), which includes the mayor (maire), their legally authorised replacement – the deputy mayor (adjoint) – or a city councillor (conseiller municipal).

Religious ceremonies are optional, have no legal status, and may only be held after the civil ceremony has taken place (which can, but need not be, on the same day.)

All of which seems very sensible to me; none of this nonsense of the State delegating clergy as its agents…. Yes, it's for mixed-gender couples only, but the French do have the equivalent of civil unions. Again from the Embassy's page —

PACS
Pacs is a legal protocol in France that formally recognises both opposite sex and same sex de facto relationships. The requirements for a PACS are the same as those for a marriage….

]]> By: Roger http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219323 Roger Sun, 07 Mar 2010 03:22:03 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219323 Unless Father Becker was a widower when he was ordained, the only sex he can have any personal experience of -- with women, with men, with children, with his own hand, even looking at or reading pornography in the name of "research" -- was mortally sinful under the rules of his Church. And if it was after he was ordained, it was doubly so, as he then broke his vow of chastity. He has no legitimate claim to being an expert on sex or sexuality. Unless Father Becker was a widower when he was ordained, the only sex he can have any personal experience of — with women, with men, with children, with his own hand, even looking at or reading pornography in the name of "research" — was mortally sinful under the rules of his Church. And if it was after he was ordained, it was doubly so, as he then broke his vow of chastity.

He has no legitimate claim to being an expert on sex or sexuality.

]]> By: K!r!lleXXI http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219322 K!r!lleXXI Sat, 06 Mar 2010 13:21:14 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219322 @Bob I was afraid I was being too harsh and inconsiderate to the people of faith. But sometimes you gotta use the simplest words available to make everyone see how ridiculous some people are. And the credit goes to Waxr and his citation from the scripture. --Kirill @Bob
I was afraid I was being too harsh and inconsiderate to the people of faith. But sometimes you gotta use the simplest words available to make everyone see how ridiculous some people are. And the credit goes to Waxr and his citation from the scripture.

–Kirill

]]> By: Johan http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219321 Johan Sat, 06 Mar 2010 13:11:04 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219321 <i>"The bill would eliminate the word marriage in state law and replace it will civil union contract.”</i> Well, if that happens, it raises interesting questions. Will it mean that those civil unions are even recognized by other states or on the federal level, considering DOMA and all the different statutorial state laws and constitutional amendments? And, if recognized, will the civil unions of opposite sex couples be recognized equally to the civil unions of same sex couples. Would be interesting if it turned out the civil unions weren't recognized accross the board or not equally for opposite sex couples and same sex couples. Both cicrumstances might add more proof to our case that: 1. anything less than marriage is insufficient and 2 (if treated unequally) the only reason for those bans and statutes is to discriminate for the sake of discrimination out of animus toward a special minority. Am I seeing ghosts or are my musings anywhere near a realistic scenario? "The bill would eliminate the word marriage in state law and replace it will civil union contract.”

Well, if that happens, it raises interesting questions.

Will it mean that those civil unions are even recognized by other states or on the federal level, considering DOMA and all the different statutorial state laws and constitutional amendments? And, if recognized, will the civil unions of opposite sex couples be recognized equally to the civil unions of same sex couples. Would be interesting if it turned out the civil unions weren't recognized accross the board or not equally for opposite sex couples and same sex couples. Both cicrumstances might add more proof to our case that: 1. anything less than marriage is insufficient and 2 (if treated unequally) the only reason for those bans and statutes is to discriminate for the sake of discrimination out of animus toward a special minority.

Am I seeing ghosts or are my musings anywhere near a realistic scenario?

]]> By: Bob http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219320 Bob Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:18:42 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219320 my nugget for the day was Kirill's posting 64 I've been having a dialogue with my church for a while now, and this is very helpful, the church is wife, church submits to christ, this goes with my questions re law and gospel, old testament is about law, Moses, new testament about gospel, gospel overcomes and replaces law. christ replaced the law by writing the gospel in our hearts and minds. The church should keep silent on these issues and let Christ rule, not moses thank you for that my nugget for the day was Kirill's posting 64 I've been having a dialogue with my church for a while now, and this is very helpful, the church is wife, church submits to christ,

this goes with my questions re law and gospel, old testament is about law, Moses, new testament about gospel, gospel overcomes and replaces law. christ replaced the law by writing the gospel in our hearts and minds.

The church should keep silent on these issues and let Christ rule, not moses thank you for that

]]> By: JQ http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/03/05/love-wins/#comment-219319 JQ Sat, 06 Mar 2010 09:21:19 +0000 http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=1901#comment-219319 I lived in the Cities last year and have since moved out near St. Cloud. The difference in opinion is palpable and a little frightening. It is shocking to see how far we have yet to go to change the minds and hearts of those 'in the heartland'. PS. Bachmann is now my representative! Yikes. I lived in the Cities last year and have since moved out near St. Cloud. The difference in opinion is palpable and a little frightening. It is shocking to see how far we have yet to go to change the minds and hearts of those 'in the heartland'.

PS. Bachmann is now my representative! Yikes.

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