Words Matter: Homosexual vs. gay/lesbian

February 12, 2010

By Julia Rosen

A lot of research has been done over the years about the best words or phrases to use when doing advocacy work for LGBT rights, particularly during campaign season. Which words or phrases makes voters more inclined to be supportive and which ones turn them off? For example, is it better to talk about equal rights, or is it better simply to talk about fairness?

One clear difference is using “gays and lesbians” vs. “homosexuals”. It’s something advocates have long known, but it is a lesson the media seems to still be learning.

CBS and the NYT teamed up for a poll which asked the same basic question: “Do you favor or oppose _______ serving in the military.” One half were asked if “homosexuals” should be allow to serve and the other half “gays and lesbians”. Not surprisingly, people were more supportive of letting “gays and lesbians” serve openly, and less so of “homosexuals”.

In the poll, 59 percent say they now support allowing “homosexuals” to serve in the U.S. military, including 34 percent who say they strongly favor that. Ten percent say they somewhat oppose it and 19 percent say they strongly oppose it.

But the numbers differ when the question is changed to whether Americans support “gay men and lesbians” serving in the military. When the question is asked that way, 70 percent of Americans say they support gay men and lesbians serving in the military, including 19 percent who say they somewhat favor it. Seven percent somewhat oppose it, and 12 percent strongly oppose it.

When it comes to whether Americans support allowing gays to serve openly, there is also a difference based on the term used. When referred to as “homosexuals,” 44 percent favor allowing them to serve openly. When referred to as “gay men and lesbians,” the percentage rises to 58 percent.

That is an 11 point swing, way outside of the margin of error.

John Aravosis simplifies this, because the CBS blog post is not very clear:

Serve in the military
Gay men and lesbians 70%
Homosexuals 59%

Serve OPENLY in the military
Gay men and lesbians 58%
Homosexuals 44%

The reasons for it are pretty obvious, homosexuality is a clinical term, you don’t hear it an automatically think of your gay cousin Rob or that nice lesbian couple down the street. Plus, it has that little word “SEX” in it and we all know how icky gay sex is to a lot of people in this country.

It’s unlikely that very Ls and Gs who are going around calling themselves homosexuals, but for all of you straight people out there, be sure to use “gays and lesbians” instead if at all possible. And if you have a friend or family member using that clinical term, gently ask them if they can talk about people not something that used to be classified as a mental disease.

Next time you see someone like Maggie Gallagher from NOM using the word “homosexual” you’ll know why they are doing it, besides just irritating you. It’s effective.

Filed under: Background

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1. fiona64 | February 12, 2010 at 9:48 am

When writing, I try to use some version of GLBT. When speaking, I use "gay men and lesbians." I try to be as inclusive as possible, and hope that I don't cause offense. :-/

Love,
Fiona
2. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 9:53 am

Fiona, I would only be offended if you decided to be a (Former?) George.

We all think, if I may speak for us all, that you are most supportive and have caused anything but offense!
3. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 10:05 am

Thank you, Julia. Yes, words matter. Especially when lives can be destroyed over words. Not only as far as earning potential, but also literally. We all know about Matthew Shepard, but every one of us also knows someone we have loved who has been beaten, often fatally, because of a word or a perception. Even Norman Lear addressed the horror of gay bashing on "All in the Family" when Beverly LaSalle was brutally beaten and died on the way back to Archie and Edith's home after a performance. For those not old enough to remember "All in the Family," Beverly LaSalle was a female impersonator that Archie and Edith befriended. And we all know what happened with medical research into HIV treatment after GRID was renamed AIDS.
4. Straight Ally #3008 | February 12, 2010 at 10:08 am

Next time you see someone like Maggie Gallagher from NOM using the word “homosexual” you’ll know why they are doing it, besides just irritating you. It’s effective.

I also note frequent use of scare quotes around the word "marriage."
5. Straight Ally #3008 | February 12, 2010 at 10:11 am

Are there any shows these days that make the sort of social commentary that All in the Family did? I'm not really a TV watcher, but I seriously doubt it.
6. Richard W. Fitch | February 12, 2010 at 10:16 am

There is a general failure to realize how important words are. The difference between denotation and connotation is evident when a man refers to his wife as "the love of my life" or The old ball and chain". Yes, words matter!
7. Sagesse | February 12, 2010 at 10:38 am

Someone directed us the other day to a lecture by George Lakoff called Moral Politics. Lakoff explains the use of 'framing' in political language, and the clinical term 'homosexual' is an excellent example. Polling always depends on the way the questions are posed, and I've been puzzled that polling results on LGBT equality are so erratic. This framing explains a lot.
8. Vaati | February 12, 2010 at 10:40 am

People are disregarding language so much these days just in how a lot of people personally choose to write and how often they read, but words have such a huge subliminal effect that to not be aware of the differences makes you more likely to fall into their traps.

People make assumptions in connection to certain words. When you hear in a court case that a gang related offense left three people dead, and later you are asked how many were shot, you would say three wouldn't you? Well *gang related* is automatically associated with gun violence, but perhaps they were stabbed. We do this subconsciously. Anything with the word *sex* in it it has a similar knee jerk reaction.

This was a very important point to bring up, they tricked people with the language and distorted what was really at stake and we cannot let them defeat equal rights with sneaky wordplay again.
9. J. Stone | February 12, 2010 at 10:40 am

Have any of you checked out the "Marriage Talking Points" supplied at the NOM blogsite (under the tab "Get Informed")? Our opponents surely understand the importance of word choice. Everything they do is calculated to manipulate unsuspecting people into supporting their malicious agenda.
10. Shlee | February 12, 2010 at 10:47 am

I also strongly believe in the power of words so now I'm curious, what word do you use to describe to yourself? Why that particular word? Are there any words you find particularly offensive?

Just a little informal poll. :0)

<3 Shlee
11. J. Stone | February 12, 2010 at 10:53 am

In case you don't want to visit the NOM blog yourself, I excerpted the part I was referring to below:
———
"THE MOST EFFECTIVE SINGLE SENTENCE:

Extensive and repeated polling agrees that the single most effective message is:

"Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us."

This allows people to express support for tolerance while opposing gay marriage. Some modify it to “People have a right to live as they choose, they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

Language to avoid at all costs: "Ban same-sex marriage." Our base loves this wording. So do supporters of SSM. They know it causes us to lose about ten percentage points in polls. Don’t use it. Say we’re against “redefining marriage” or in favor or “marriage as the union of husband and wife” NEVER “banning same-sex marriage.” "
——————-
Notice how they provide an alternative "effective" sentence for those among their ranks who can't bring themselves to admit that "gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose"! ! Sometimes the only thing that keeps my spirits up is the knowledge that all of these bigoted people are going to die off sooner or later.
12. Richard W. Fitch | February 12, 2010 at 10:56 am

"Male"
13. J. Stone | February 12, 2010 at 10:56 am

I prefer to use "gay" as an adjective rather than a noun. I cringe when people say, "He is a gay."
14. Roger | February 12, 2010 at 11:06 am

Ever notice how they emphasize the word "sexual" when they say it as if they wanted to act as if it bans sex instead of marriage but can't bring themselves to saying it?
15. Vaati | February 12, 2010 at 11:14 am

I am a lesbian, but gay is more mild to say. Prefer that.
16. Devon | February 12, 2010 at 11:15 am

This is completely irrelevant to using the word "homosexual", but I thought everyone would enjoy this.
17. Devon | February 12, 2010 at 11:15 am

[youtube
18. David Kimble | February 12, 2010 at 11:17 am

I am struck by something they say, but don't really say – they still believe this is a choice we consciously make. Hence:
“Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

I think this is an awesome paragraph coming from NOM!

It is proof that they no longer feel safe using extreme language; now they feel forced to admit that we are free to live our lives. Their last possible means of discrimination is to jealously and futilely attempt to deny marriage. It is the only remaining way to deligitimize us!

After this it will be adoption issues. "We concede that homosexuals have the right to 'marry' in a civil context, but children should not be forced to be raised by those who choose to live unnatural lifestyles."

What next? NOTHING!

They will have to go back to premarital sex or vilifying Muslims or other religions!!!

I like to see this wording….they are admitting defeat…they are losing ground…they are struggling!!!!

WE ARE STRONG!!! LOVE WILL PREVAIL!!!

I have a question for you all…..

Why does the government have any right to define gender in the first place?

Genetic testing is not mandatory by the state or the Fed…

No exam is required to marry!!!

So just why does the state have the right to tell ME if I am male/female, man/woman?

Answer me that one!!!!!

SA, the last show I remember that made the kind of social commentary that "All in the Family" made was "Roseanne." Or maybe "The World According to Wanda" with Wanda Sykes. But other than that, I think you have to watch PBS for the BBC shows. Or maybe Bravo and LOGO.

I posted this yesterday on another topic, but thought it important to keep it going.
this whole "gays are not natural" thing can be proven with my facts:

an interesting FACT about gays:

Gays are the ONLY phenomenon in the ENTIRE universe that does not need to reproduce to keep our population
at a constant.

If you killed every gay person on the planet, within a generation there would be just as many if not even more gays!

If that ain’t nature..then NOTHING is.

They should also have asked the question "Do you favor or oppose heterosexuals serving in the military?"

I'd be interested in the results of that poll.

Still true … still funny!!! Still proof that we are never going away!!!!!

You can wipe out a 'race' but you can't kill off an orientation anymore than you can kill off a gender!!!

They can cry all they want but we are not backing down EVER!!!

Don't spread that theory too far. There are way too many organizations that would just love to do a full-scale test.

I call myself a rainbowneck. This is a word I coined a few years ago because I am a gay male, but I cannot read five pages of any Jeff Foxworthy "You might be a redneck if…" book without identifying with at least four of those pages. I have had a trucker's wallet (You might be a redneck if your dog and your wallet are both on chains) and had to use a logginb chain when I walked my Dalmatian because any other type of leash would snap if he saw a cat or a bird. I have also been fortunate enough to have several dogs (and cats) at one time, and they did sleep under the front porch in the summer time. (You might be a redneck if your front porch collapsing would cause problems for 6 or more dogs.) I have also had cars where the stereo system that came with the car was worth more than the rest of the car. I have had cars that were primarily bondo and primer in color. And yes, I have been on the news before doing imitations of th tornado that went through town. In short, I am a gay male who has learned to take living so seriously that I have learned to laugh at myself. Just don't cross me. Don't lie to me, don't hurt anyone I love, don't treat me like a second-class citizen, or even a third-class citizen.

As for words I find offensive: I am not a girl, so do not call me one.
I am not a burning bundle of sticks, so do not call me a faggot.
I am intelligent, and educated, but do not call me an egghead.
I am more than just those conjugal activities I enjoy in private, so do not call me a c****sucker.
I am not bound for Hell, so do not call me demon spawn.
My lesbian friends are humans, and they are women, so do not call them dykes.
I am not a flower, so do not call me a pansy, especially because I can probably carry more weight on my shoulders than most straight men who are not gymrats.
I am slender, but I am not a twink.
I wear glasses, but do not call me four-eyes.
There are others, and I will post again later when I think of them.

Devon, is this a movie that is actually coming out, or is this "trailer" a satire? Myself, I thought it was hilarious, just because the premise is so ridiculous.

I define myself as a "verb;" no other single descriptor has ever proven as broadly and persistently accurate about me in my over 53 years of life.

Words DO matter greatly and every human being on the planet, IMO, cold benefit A LOT from reading "Science and Sanity" by Count Alfred Korzibsky and implementing the lingistic tools of General Semantics which he founded.

Already happened once…it was called the HOLOCAUST!!

Lest we forget where we got the pink triangles!!

Vaati, I also refer to myself as gay. Only since being here on the prop 8 trial tracker have I used the term lesbian for myself.

31. Lesbians Love Boies | February 12, 2010 at 12:27 pm

The Religious Right’s Battle Against Hate Crime Laws

Quote: "Are hate crime laws that give gay people special protections against violent crimes a sneaky conspiracy to persecute Christians?"
http://trueslant.com/charlesjohnson/2010/02/12/th…

I have been seeing this advanced more this week. They are playing the victim game this week. I would love to get into these churches email to know if this is a heightened campaign against us since the trial ended.
32. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 12:29 pm

Something of note that I always kinda liked….most gender words use the masculine as the base. Man/ womb-man, boy (which was specifically a young man during medieval times) girl (any child), Sir for a male military officer, Sir for a female military officer, etc etc.

But in the gay community there is Lesbian for females, and gay for either gender in general. There is no specific socially acceptable single word for gay man in our language.

I think that rather sets us apart as being unique!!
33. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 12:33 pm

fiona I heart you…if I was straight and you were a lesbian I would totally be your beard so that you can get married….you know because only the opposite sex can get married even though they just met a second ago…lol…<3…Ronnie
34. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 12:34 pm

I posted this on the previous thread, but it seems appropriate here also. This song is used at weddings, and I will sing it to my husband in Danbury, CT when we LEGALLY get married, but it is also how I feel about this community and family I have fond because of this site. This is how strongly I feel about marriage equality, and it alsofits this threa because it is one more pice of eidence about how much words matter. Originally on the Kathy Mattea CD "Untasted Honey" in 1988, but not released as a single until it was included on her 1990 CD "Collections of HIts" (guess the CD title was a self-fulfilling prophecy for this song), it was written by Tim O'Brien, who is her duet partner on the song. So, without further ado, here are the lyrics to "Battle Hymn of Love."

1) I will pledge my heart to the love we share, through the good and the bad times too.
I'll forsake my rest for your happiness;
'Til my death I will stand by you.

**CHORUS**
35. Lesbians Love Boies | February 12, 2010 at 12:36 pm

Earlier today some of us saw the video and article of the Merrimack legislator opposed to same-sex marriage in which she claimed that fifth-grade students in Nashua are being shown pictures of naked men and taught how to engage in anal sex.

Well, now Nashua school officials are challengine the validity of her statement. In all seriousness, she should be reprimanded for even "yelling fire" before first finding out if it were true. I doubt she even contacted the school district (if it wasn't her, herself that faked the claim).
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/606137-196/st…
36. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 12:41 pm

Sorry about that. Hit the wrong key somewhere and wasn't finished. Here is the rest of the song.

**CHORUS**

With God as my witness, this vow I will make
To have and to hold you, no other to take.
For rich or for poor, under skies grey or blue,
'Til my death I will stand by you.

2) There are wars and there are rumors of wars yet to come,
Temptations we'll have to walk through.
Though others may tremble, I will not run;
'Til my death I will stand by you.

**BRIDGE**

I will put on the armor of faithfulness,
To fight for a heart that is true;
'Til the battle is won, I will not rest;
'Til my dath I will stand by you.

**CHORUS**

With God as my witness, this vow I will make
To have and to hold you, no other to take;
For rich or for poor, under skies grey or blue,
'Til my death I will stand by you.

**TAG**

'Til the battle is won, I will not run!
'Til my death I will stand by you!
37. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 12:43 pm

I've never seen "All in the Family" but I can list most of the current shows that have LGBT and HIV/AIDS story lines:

1.Brothers & Sisters
2.Desperate Housewives
3.Gossip Girl
4.Modern Family
5.One Life to Live
6.General Hospital
7.The Deep End, had a story line last night
8.Family Guy
9.Spartacus
10.Supernatural, had an episode
11. As the World Turns
12. Grey's Anatomy
13.then there is LOGO and HERE!
14.Project Runway
15.Launch My Line
16.Bravo also has some other stylists shows
17. Not to mention Will & Grace, Queer as Folk, The L Word

I'm sure there is more but thats all I could come up with at the top of my head……<3…Ronnie
38. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 12:44 pm

Oh and Ugly Betty…….luv luv luv that show….<3…Ronnie
39. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 12:45 pm

I hate "scare" quotes…….<3…Ronnie
40. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 12:48 pm

The prop ha8ters are like the snake that convinced Eve to eat the Apple…yeah?……<3…Ronnie
41. PDXAndrew | February 12, 2010 at 12:56 pm

Oh that is just hilarious! Thank you!
42. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 12:56 pm

Ronnie, my husband (the rabbi) said to remind you that just like most unenlightened Christians, they keep trying to blame the fruit for everything that is wrong i the world.
43. Urbain | February 12, 2010 at 12:57 pm

Excellent article. No wonder the Christian right is always referring to the vast "homosexual agenda." I think I read somewhere today that it is a "global homosexual agenda." Before you know, some great big huge ship will be seen hovering over a major metro area, sort of like the Phoenix lights, delivering the commanders of the "Universal Homosexual Agenda"
to do battle with god-fearing souls everywhere.

More seriously, here's another study that came out — Many voting booths are in churches across America. Research is showing that the location of polling stations influences how people will vote; i.e., social conservatives like having voters go to churches because they tend to vote for the defeat of same sex marriage and favorably for other conservative issues at churches:
http://www.goddiscussion.com/19628/religious-news…

I have never liked having to go to a church to vote. It seems like an "in your face" erosion of the wall between church and state.
44. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 12:57 pm

AWESOME!!! The liers are being called down!

Here are a few select comments:

Let's see if the Federation [of Republican Women]comes out against her words/actions and removes her from her leadership post.

Rep Elliott: "And I thought to myself, 'would I want this done to me?' "
Well at least she considered it….

Readers (and all citizens of New Hampshire), you now have a moral responsibility to get Elliott to resign and/or her leaders to fire her.

Sounds like this Elliott totally made it up! I highly doubt a mother would tell just one person about such a thing. If such were true it would be all over the media! That kind of thing would not be taught in school. She's just trying to get people riled so that bill is repealed!

OMG, what more can any sane person say. She is willing to throw Nashua educators under the bus with her lies.

I have a child in grade school in Nashua and I would be willing to bet this in only happening in her fairy tale mind. There is NO WAY on earth that this happened and only 1 child went home and told his/her parents. 5th graders would not keep this type of thing quite, there is just no way . . . impossible!

This longer one is excellent!!!

This is a complete and total fabrication by Ms. Elliott in an effort to generate controversy and harm.

When confronted with elected official who intentionally lies in order to cause deliberate injury to a subset of their constituents, there is only one reasonable path that can be followed:

1) The offender must recant her statement and apologize immediately to all citizens of our state
or
2) We begin the RECALL process and replace this Legislator who has shown that they are not fit to serve

Since, throughout her term, Ms. Elliot has demonstrated an ongoing pattern of disrespect for the citizens of our great state, we should begin the RECALL process now so that she understands that we are serious about New Hampshire being an inclusive, secular and united state.

LIVE FREE OR DIE! RECALL MS. ELLIOT NOW!

And my personal favorite…

Lying is such a great quality in our leadership. Someone please show this woman the door.

Could say that about quite a few of our leadership!!!
45. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 1:03 pm

Hell Yeah!!! Bring on the Gay-pocolypse!!!!
46. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:03 pm

And as the aftermath of the Holocaust proved, you cannot even wipe out a race. The Jewish people are not only a religious group, they are not only a cultural group, they are a race. And Hitler did not succeed in wiping them out, even though he tried very hard to do so. And th irony of it is that not only was he NOT a German (he was Astrian) but he was half-Jewish! His intent was to wipe out everyone who was jewish, everyone who was above a certain age, everyone who was gay, everyone who was mentally or physically challenged, everyone who was not white, and everyone else who got in his way while he attempted to do that. He did not eliminate the Jews, he did not eliminate the mentally challenged or the physically challenged, he did not eliminate the elderly, he did not eliminate the non-whites. In short, he did not succeed. Evil does not succeed in the long run, and that is why I have to agree that Prop h8, DOMA, DADT will all fall within a short time. If not simultaneously, then in a very short chronology.
47. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:05 pm

I think their next target will either be Muslims…..especially if there is another attack…….and/or Vampires…..yes people they do exist….not in the Dracula, Buffy the Vampire slayer or Twilight way…but people who actually drink human blood (barf)….and live like vampires….some even go the step of surgically altering their teeth to have fangs….its freaky but interesting…I knew one when I lived in Philly last year….<3…Ronnie
48. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 1:06 pm

I don't suppose you mean…

[T]hey keep trying to blame the "fruit"?!!!
49. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:08 pm

I call myself….. A Human Male American Mutt…..<3…Ronnie
50. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:11 pm

lol…..I love that dopty-daddy……"if you are at a wedding and somebody yells hoedown and your girlfriend hits the floor,,,then you might be a redneck"………heheheeh……<3…Ronnie
51. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:14 pm

Felyx, I knew you would catch that one. BTW, how much snow have you gotten up your way? Tey are calling for between 2 and 5 inches overnight here in Cumberland County, and I think we have almost four of it already. And that is bad, because these people are reckless enough when the roads are clear and dry!
52. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:14 pm

And then you ask…..When did you choose to be straight?….either it STTFU or it P.O.es them off….either way its very amusing….<3…Ronnie
53. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:17 pm

Or how about this one, Ronnie?
If you think a futon is another word for the pull-out couch in the Winnebago, you might be a redneck?
Or–If you knit your favorite hunting dog a camouflage sweater and buy doggie boots to match, you might be a redneck!
54. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:20 pm

Yes, and any of us who have ever had four-legged furry friends all know that the most loyal of them are the rescues and the mutts, so be proud of being a human Heinz 57!
55. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:22 pm

Roger, that is because they want everyone to pretend that the only sex anyone is having is if they are married. They intentionally blinder themselves to reality. It also helps them get more votes because of the 'ick' factor.
56. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:23 pm

And Felyx, if you or anyone else knows, I would like to know how we came to use the lambda.
57. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

hehehehe….."If you cut the grass and find a car…you might be a red neck"………lol……<3…Ronnie
58. dieter | February 12, 2010 at 1:25 pm

The former publisher and longtime employee of The Advocate, Michael Phelps, died at his Los Angeles home on February 10. He was 45.

Phelps started at the magazine in 1996. Both genial and tenacious, Phelps quickly rose in the ranks.
59. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm

And then there are the ones who just stand there with there mouths making that same motion that the fish make in the aquarium. That is when I really have to struggle to keep a straight face (no pun intended!)
60. dieter | February 12, 2010 at 1:29 pm

The lambda

One symbol which continues to remain popular is the lower case Greek letter lambda. The symbol was originally chosen by the Gay Activists Alliance of New York in 1970. The GAA was a group which broke away from the larger Gay Liberation Front at the end of 1969, only six months after it's foundation in response to the Stonewall Riots. While the GLF wanted to work side by side with the black and women's liberation movements to gain unity and acceptance, the GAA wanted to focus their efforts more concisely on only Gay and Lesbian issues.

Because of its official adoption by the GAA, which sponsored public events for the gay community, the lambda soon became a quick way for the members of the gay community to identify each other. The reasoning was that the lambda would easily be mistaken for a college fraternity symbol and ignored by the majority of the population. Eventually though, the GAA headquarters was torched by an arsonist, destroying not only the building but all of the organization's records, and the movement never recovered from the loss. The symbol, however, lived on.

Now what the symbol means or meant when it was introduced are a prime topic for speculation and a morass of public rumoring. Some of the more popular rumors are:

* Simply, the Greek letter "L" stands for "liberation."
* The Greek Spartans believed that the lambda represented unity.
* The Romans took it as meaning "the light of knowledge shining into the darkness of ignorance."
* The charged energy of the gay movement. This stems from the lambda's use in chemistry and physics to denote energy in equations.
* The synergy which results when gays and lesbians work together towards a common goal (a gestalt theory which also stems from the physics-energy theory)
* The notion that straights and gays, or gays and lesbians, or any pairing of these three, are on different wavelengths when it comes to sex, sexuality, or even brain patterns. This again comes from the lambda's presence in chemistry and physics, where it is sometimes used to represent the wavelength of certain types of energy.
* An iconic rendering of the scales of justice and the constant force that keeps opposing sides from overcoming each other. The hook at the bottom of the right leg would then signify the action and initiative needed to reach and maintain balance.
* The lambda is also though by some to have appeared on the shields of Spartan and/or Theben warriors. The Thebes version is more popular because, as legend has it, the city- state organized the Theban Band from groups of idealized lovers, which made them extremely fierce and dedicated warriors. Eventually however, the army was completely decimated by Kind Philip II, but was later honored by his son Alexander the Great.
61. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:34 pm

Thanks, dieter.
62. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 1:38 pm

I have asked that question myself. My understanding was that it was adopted by the gay intelligencia of the time (70's) because it was a fairly distinct symbol, rarely used in literature and had a prior association with the Mattachine Society that suggested gayness was an 'energy' that only a few possessed.

Here is a passage from a website that is more detailed.

No one seems to have a definitive answer why the lambda was originally chosen as a gay symbol. Some suggest that it is simply the Greek lower-case letter l for liberation. Others disagree, citing the use of lambda in physics to denote energy (the energy we have when we work in concert) or wavelength (are gays and lesbians on a different wavelength?). Lambda may also denote the synergy of the gay movement, the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The lambda also may represent scales and balance, and the constant force that keeps opposing sides from overcoming each other — the hook at the bottom of the right leg signifies the action needed to reach and maintain balance. The ancient Greek Spartan's regarded the lambda to mean unity, while the Roman's considered it "the light of knowledge shed into the darkness of ignorance."
http://www.fortunecity.com/village/birdcage/279/l…
63. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 1:41 pm

LMAO!!!
64. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 1:49 pm

Don't rightly know…I guesstimate about 6". (You'd think I would be able to tell how many inches with just half a glance from 50 yards away!)

It is still snowing off and on. Doesn't matter here though….everyone has 40 wheel drive and their own personal tow truck.

The local comedy channel features people in NY and Washington getting stuck in anything less than two feet of snow.
65. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 1:55 pm

Thanks, Felyx. Between you and dieter, I have learned a great deal about the lambda, and I personally think that all of the above reasons may have been contributing factors to choosing the lambda.
66. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 2:07 pm

My personal view is that it came about like a lot of revolutionary type things do…

A bunch of ideas are thrown out, vigorously defended, finally the leadership and the movers what to get on with it so they push a vote and adopt something just for the sake of progress.

Then after all is said and done and the office goes up in smoke no one remembers how it all started but there is no turning back at that point and life goes on.

Just an opinion.
67. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 2:34 pm

I guess while I am on a tangent I might as well go on…

The triangle and lambda are already fading from the gay civil rights movement as they were born out of pain and revolution respectively.

The flag however was intentially created by a calmer and more organized part of the movement that came later. The idea was to encompass gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, transexuals, transgendered, queers (all those ostracized due to gender role ambiguity including but not limited to drag queens, transvestites and anyone picked on for not being what society considered appropriately male or female), and later questioning and intersexed. It also took into account that GLBTTQQI came from all creeds, colors and nationalities. The rainbow, put in flag form, seemed a perfect symbol. Never before used and both beautiful and appealing to just about everyone. It also carried with it an underlying message of promise.

The flag phenomenon as a symbol is rather unique in civil rights movements. While other movements have essentially been centered around indentifiable features in a class of people such as nationality (cultural practices, language accent etc), gender, genetics etc., the GLBT community has no readily identifiable feature other than self-identification.

I would predict that because of this the GLBT community will retain the flag almost indefinitely, even if there is no longer a movement. No other civil rights movement has retained any of it symbology quite like this much after its movement has succeeded.

Just an opinion piece. We have something beautiful that will endure.

Enjoy!
68. J. Stone | February 12, 2010 at 4:01 pm

Jay Leno once asked people on the street if they would vote for an openly heterosexual presidential candidate. Most said no. Some people don't listen, and others are just dumb.
69. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 4:14 pm

"Me" is the name I call myself. It is the most ambiguous word possible that accurately refers to oneself. I am not offended by any particular word but find myself annoyed at nonsense words invented to convey a message rather than convey a fact.
70. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 4:19 pm

My answer to the question is usually "when I observed the cuteness of the butt of the other gender." Before you decide what attracts you, how do you know which gender it belongs to?
71. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 4:24 pm

The misfortune of THAT comparison is that that if you wiped out every sufferer of Tay-Sachs on the planet, within a generation, there would be just as many. Your example directly compares homosexuality to all other genetically terminal conditions where nature ensures that the afflicted die without making any contribution to the gene pool. I'm relatively certain that your intent isn't to point out that homosexuality is a naturally-occurring dead end.
72. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 4:30 pm

A religion is a racial characteristic. That's a fascinating theory… religious identify is genetic.
But the lesson of the Holocaust isn't that it's impossible to wipe out a race (that, like the spherical nature of the Earth, has been apparent for centuries) but that when a small group has the power to issue binding fiat irregardless of the wishes of the masses, they can do monstrous things.
73. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 4:41 pm

Indeed you do. Like the star-spangled banner, the Union Jack, the Rising Sun of Nippon, and the Red Cross that was a reversal of Switzerland's flag. You have indeed created a symbol that will endure for all the foreseeable future.
74. Kathleen | February 12, 2010 at 4:44 pm

OMG!! (in the current vernacular) did anyone see kd lang performing leonard cohen's "hallelujah" during the olympic opening ceremonies? chills and tears.
75. dieter | February 12, 2010 at 4:52 pm

I remember umpteen years ago when I was first going to a gay bar, I heard her singing on the tv in some video..and I told my friend I thought HE was cute….lol

ooops.
76. Michelle Evans | February 12, 2010 at 6:18 pm

Back to the original point of this thread: Words and their use, good and bad.

One class of persons not mentioned in this is transgender. I can pretty much guarantee you that there are a heck of a lot more derogatory terms out there for us than for gays and lesbians. I won't get into the list as it is quite long, and I would probably just cry anyway, as I have been called pretty much all of them at one time or another.

It is one thing you definitely find in most discussions of LGBT, that the T is usually left out in the cold, much like what happened to us with the 2006 ENDA bill.

The discussion about Don't Ask, Don't Tell is also very relevant with concern for transgender people in that it is also never mentioned. If it is overturned, gays and lesbians would be able to serve openly in our military, yet what of those who are trans? I served for seven years in the Air Force protecting our country, yet the second anyone might have found out about who I really was would have been my last moment in my job. I worked on nuclear weapons-carrying missiles and held a very high security clearance, and I was highly regarded in my job until I finished college and decided to get out after my second enlistment. How that opinion would have changed if they had known the truth about me?

An interesting dichotomy in this is that the Veterans Administration is required to treat all of us equally according to our medical needs, be we gay, lesbian, or trans, yet the opposite would be true while actually on active service. My head explodes with all the contradictions in this!
77. Rightthingtodo TX | February 12, 2010 at 6:37 pm

“Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

wow…there's so much sense of entitlement built into this one sentence…let's take the SOE out of it and address what the sentence is really saying. if we take out the SOE, meaning we put no weight on its traditional/historical definition…remember all the "traditions" and "working titles" of "person", "wife", "voter",etc aren't the right "titles" otherwise a black individual would be 3/5 of a person, a "voter" would exclude female from the working definition…then really what the sentence says is "Gays and Lesbians have the right to live as they choose, they don't have the right to define marriage for all of us". the word "redefine" assumes the traditional definition is the better one.

and there's the key…just like we don't get to define marriage, neither do they…government sanctioned benefits don't have judgments attached to them…therefore the only requirement for the access to marriage rights (or any right) should be citizenship.

so because they're forcing their definition of "…marriage on all of us", they're preventing "gays and lesbians…a right to live as they choose…" once we get to this the basis for their argument falls away…it gets back to a judgment…an assessment about the validity of a human being(s)…isn't that God's job? to judge people?
78. Kay Moore | February 12, 2010 at 6:52 pm

Because they're responsible for the well-being and charitable care of each and every citizen by popular demand. This requires a strict set of rules and in things like medical care, there are numerous treatments that make perfect sense for a female but would be very strange to prescribe for a male (hormone replacement therapy to treat menopause, for example) and vice versa. Because the citizens they are required to care for have to be put under some bureaucratic rule-ridden regime, classification becomes important to determine which rules and which regime fits best. to accomplish this, they define "male" and "female" along with innumerable sub-categories. They define gender out of bureaucratic necessity, not because the government is institutionally homophobic or something.
79. G Rod | February 12, 2010 at 10:16 pm

It is quite obvious that words matter as seen in this article dated Feb 13.
80. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 11:03 pm

And Kay, if the government is responsible for the care of every citizen due to popular demand, then why is it so hard for someone who is working but cannot afford insurance, because the other everyday bills take everything they have, to get help so that he or she can go to the doctor? Why doso many of us have to wait until we are almost dying before going to the hospital because if you are male, white, single, and not on a permanent disability list, you cannot afford to be sick and miss work, and your employer does not offer health care coverage because the insurance industry wants to gouge everybody, so nobody wants to treat you without insurance? And I would be willing to bet tat you were one of those who is against the health care reforms that President Obama wanted, just like the rest of the Republicants who had to add a lot of pork for the rich until the health care reform package turned into a bailout for the insurance industry, and the insurance industry does not need a bailout.
81. Richard Walter (soon | February 12, 2010 at 11:09 pm

Yes, and that binding fiat without regard to the will of the masses is exactly what the LDS and the fundevangelists want, Kay. That is why they keep firing everyone up through their campaigns where they lie, twist the truth, ignore the facts, and scheme behind closed doors and begin operating their churches not as churches but as PAC's so that they can justify discrimination, hatred, and bashing. They do not want anyone to know the truth. That is why the pm.com site only gave abbreviated, cherry-picked synopses of each day's proceedings and never allowed comments during the trial. They were afraid their sheeple would learn the truth and they would lose their funding. And yes, the Jewish people are a race. Tis is not a theory, it is a proven fact.
82. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 11:48 pm

Hacker alert…was banned
83. Juli | February 12, 2010 at 11:50 pm

SHE is!
84. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 11:50 pm

You have stepped into the hacker zone….where trolls who have been banned still hack their way into a blog and harass people…..do do do do do do do do…….dada!!!…….<3…Ronnie
85. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 11:52 pm

Moore hacking….dopty-daddy I find it so funny when a troll is banned and yet is still harassing people…..don't you?…..<3…Ronnie
86. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 11:55 pm

A hypocrite is still going against its own rule of joining into other peoples conversations even after it was banned from the site…..hacker alert….hacker alert………<3…Ronnie
87. Felyx | February 12, 2010 at 11:57 pm

Translation:

1) Tradition, it has always been that way,

2) Doctors are not smart enough to know who gets estrogen without a letter on a drivers license,

3) I just like making sh-tuff up to appear intelligent on message boards like,

"they define “male” and “female” along with innumerable sub-categories"

when in reality there are no universal scientifically based catagories what so ever much less actual legal definitions.

4) This is one more chance to imply a gay agenda of homophobia even though it is completely out of context with the previous post. (Trans-phobia perhaps but that was not what was said.)

And lastly, I don't know, I just hate stoopid homo-monkeys that think they can pretend to get married and live real lives.

Kay, I give up, you win. I can't consider you serious any longer. Please stop replying to my posts. Your answer here was patently false in some areas and pointlessly inflamatory in others. Reply to other posts if you like, make fun of others, be please now leave me alone now.
88. Ronnie | February 12, 2010 at 11:58 pm

Troll is a bigot …that's a fact….a troll believes everything it reads as fact and talks about historic events as if it was actually there…..there is another name for that…….PSHYCO !!!!!!……….<3…Ronnie
89. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:00 am

I haven't watched it yet…saved it on DVR…..I will check it out later……<3…Ronnie
90. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:12 am

Especially since youwould think they would have learned the last time this legal firm go its hand smacked by the judge, who was a Bush appointee.
91. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 12:12 am

Well said Richard,

Many pseudo-intellectuals are not aware of our particular history. Judaism started as a state religion of the tribe of Judah. It functioned at one time as a national religion competing among a pantheon of religious deities. Those who share the genetic traits of the hebrew people have maintained their religious affiliation more strongly as a nation or tribal group far more strongly than any other.

While participation is a chosen aspect, being called Jewish carries with it a genetic and cultural identification as well.

Thank you for pointing that out. Your comments are quite insightful!
92. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:13 am

And she is a very talented singer and songwriter.
93. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:15 am

Michelle…I hope you know who much I am in awe of you….I have friends who are trans and it hate what you have to go through….I'm going to tell you a story that happened to me recently…..3 years ago when I was getting my Associates for Fashion Design, I was taking a class called Fashion Show Production and I was the model coordinator…..There was a girl went to the school for the same thing…..beautiful, could walk better in heels then any other girl that came to the go-see, even the professional models….she fit every look perfectly….the teacher refused to hire her because she was actually a he…..I was pissed and quit….took a "D" for the class and 15 of the models with me….the show fell apart and they wound up using students….another thing was that Chad(her name) is from Tennessee and had to live in the dorms, but they forced her to live in the mens dorms, she had to pay double because no body wanted to room with her…it truly is appalling and I don't know had Chad did it….so Michelle. I hope you know how inspired I am by all of you and how much I do consider you family…..<3…Ronnie
94. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:18 am

Actually, Ronnie, this causes me to pity them even more. After all, they must live a sad, lonely, depressing subsistence of a life if the only theing they can find to do is to hack into a site that they have been banned from and harass the adults who are trying to have an intelligent converation. Either that, or they have more money than they have brains if they can afford to buy another computer to get into the site after the IP address has been blocked. but then, this particular one is another team effort, just like the one who bid us all farewell until the ruling.
95. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:24 am

And Michelle, I have always admired trans people. After all, look where our civil rights movement got it start–at the Stonewall Inn when the trans people all finally got fed up with the nightly raids and took things into their own hands and got the terrorism and the tyranny to stop. Of all of us in the LGBTQQI communtity, the trans folks in my opinion have more balls than the rest of us.
96. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:25 am

No the government is responsible for all tax paying American citizens under the law therefor the church's and the mormon church are just freeloading trolls and bigots that are wasting our hard earned tax money on that holy water, jesus crackers, and jesus blood whine while they molest boys and girls and get away with it (not one was thrown in jail)…….<3…Ronnie

P.S. Moore Hacker alert….was banned and is still harassing people with convoluted speculation, propaganda, hearsay, and simple cr@p….am I right Felyx and dopty-daddy?
97. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:30 am

Thank you, Felyx. In fact, I remember also with regards to the beginning of the HIV era, that one of the things doctors were finding unusual was the presence of Kaposi's Sarcoma, which prior to this time had been found ordinarily only in elderly Jewish men. And by elderly, I mean like late 80's or older. And believe me, I have gained a great deal of education about our Jewish heritage in the year I have been with Rabbi. Yes, I said Rabbi. He is Lubavitcher, complete with the earlocks.
98. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 12:32 am

I would also poit out that this characteristic is far different than genetic disorders or other biological phenomenon (which are natural.) It is theoretically possible to genetically breed out Cystic Fibrosis and other genetic based ailments. Gayness, however, if genetically related, would be more similar to skin color or height. Trying to alter 'gayness' genetics would be like trying to tamper with pigment genes or height genes, it would be disasterous! (BTW the study of height has been proved to have a genetic component but the genes have not been isolated. Sexuality or gayness has been proven to have a genetic link in the same manner of study. You don't hear anyone clamoring that height cannot possible be genetically related though!)

Let's not deny, though, that even without reproduction with a chosen partner that does not forbid reproduction altogether! With all of modern technology there still lies the good ol' fashioned method, go sleep with a friend.
Gay peoples ability to contribute to society the family and even the gene pool (when consciously desired) puts us in a uniquely valuable position to provide substantial support to others. We still donate organs and blood, our genes still hold valuable information that can be used to benefit society, our ability to be stable and caring gives us an unusual position to absorb the cost, care and needs of those children left without. Again I marvel at your excellent point! Thank you for sharing with us!
99. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:35 am

So true dopty-daddy….and if you notice the time that these bigots post on here is between the hours when most people would be sleeping….a practice that was religiously used by the Triple K and Swatzys…..the resemblance is uncanny….right dopty-daddy?…..<3…Ronnie
100. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:37 am

Ronnie @ #35. You are right in as far as you go with it, but you als forgot that most of the trolls here are nothing more than sheep who are blindly following the sheepherder who is in vogue at the time. I truly pity them, and like another commenter said in a previous post, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And since they know not what they do, they do not realize the harm they are also causing their own legal future. When they push for the repeal of hate crimes laws such as Shepard-Byrd, they are also giving up their own protections under those same laws. By using the blanket terms of gender identity and expresson, and the blanket term of sexual orientation, this means the law covers EVERYBODY, not just LGBTQQI. This means that if someone attacks KM for being asexual, or heterosexual, or for being female, he/she/it/they also fall under the covered persons of this act, and can push for federal hate crimes team to come in and investigate and prosecute.
101. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 12:39 am

She may be harassing people with convoluted speculation, propaganda, hearsay, and simple cr@p,

but at least she does it in a pseudo-intellectual way that still puts out the message that gays are underserving and beneath her….which is why she is still trolling around as you say!
102. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:40 am

Yup yup yup!…."Thall shall not judge less the be judged in return"…..its a sin……Bigots!…..Blasphemer…..Blasphemer!……lol….hehe ….<3…Ronnie
103. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:45 am

Yeah Felyx they forget simple modern biology….sex in no longer required to reproduce…..so all heteros can be wiped out and we would still be able to repopulate the world…..thank you artificial insemination…now if only we could isolate the heterosexual gene and extract it before the baby is born……<3…Ronnie
104. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:45 am

You are right. Of course it may also be that Team KM has had their funding cut because the team leader has finally seen that they are fighting a losing battle, so the only time that is available to them are the late night hours when everyone else would normally be asleep. Of corse, it also makes me wonder if Team KM is a group of demented vampires who only feel sated when they have kicked someone down.
105. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:52 am

I agree that it is extremely underhanded….at least when I do it to it…..I get right to the point…If I don't like you I say I don't like you….cut though the Shite…..no beating around the bush just simple to the point…just like life….like I said before, there is not "I" in Bigot……….wait?

<3…Ronnie
106. K | February 13, 2010 at 12:58 am

I think that two of the more damaging phrases they use are "homosexual agenda" (or "gay agenda"), and "homosexual lifestyle" (or "gay lifestyle").

On the surface, a word like "agenda" simply means something like "plan." To the people who think along the lines of those reading this blog, such a plan would mean perhaps equal rights under the law. However, when this term is heard by people outside of the supportive community, it invokes something else entirely because it carries a message in shorthand code to them, and it goes straight to emotion rather than reason. What they hear is "be very afraid because they're out to recruit your children."

Regarding the "lifestyle" word, the question to me is why use the term "gay lifestyle" at all? What does lifestyle have to do with being gay? Most of us would agree that there is a diversity in lifestyle in the gay community equal to the diversity in the general population. But a "lifestyle" is definitely a choice. Using the term carries the implication that a gay person has chosen to be gay.
107. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:58 am

No they can't be vampires because vampires are extremely sexual beings….I knew one when I lived in philly….most are bisexual if not a-sexual(but very into the hand if you know what I mean)….I'm not going to repeat Moore then it does….but yes Vampires do exist, not in the fictional sense…though…<3….Ronnie
108. K | February 13, 2010 at 1:14 am

I think that two of the more damaging phrases they use are "homosexual agenda" (or "gay agenda"), and "homosexual lifestyle" (or "gay lifestyle").

On the surface, a word like "agenda" simply means something like "plan." However, when this term is heard by people outside of the supportive community, it carries a message in shorthand code to them, and it goes directly to emotion rather than reason. What they hear is "be very afraid because they're out to recruit your children."

Regarding the "lifestyle" word, the question to me is why use the term "gay lifestyle" at all? What does lifestyle have to do with being gay? Most of us would agree that there is a diversity in lifestyle in the gay community equal to the diversity in the general population's lifestyle. Can you imagine what a nonsensical term "straight lifestyle" would be? So, why "lifestyle"? A "lifestyle" is definitely a choice. Using the term carries the implication that a gay person has chosen to be gay.

It should also be noted that these phrases have become part of our world by repeat, repeat, repeat. Nowadays, one is likely to hear them from, for example, newscasters who are quite innocent of animosity, because it's part of our common language.

Love,
Kaye
109. David Crane | February 13, 2010 at 1:44 am

True Blood! – besides being my favorite show on TV, the first season plays around with vampires "coming out of the coffin" and getting married in Vermont, the credits feature a church with the sign "God hates fangs," and the character Lafayette is a gay hero to some.

Torchwood
110. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:50 am

hehehe….I love Lafayette…..Oh and Jason Stackhouse…..mmmmm!!!!……..Get out our town….you Fang Banger!!…..hehehe…..lol…<3…Ronnie
111. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 1:50 am

Dr. Who and Torchwood are awesome!

I am sure the original poster was asking about a show with deeply social issues like Star Trek (STNG), All in the Family etc…..

But I just loves me some SyFy!!
112. K | February 13, 2010 at 1:55 am

Sorry for the double posts a bit ago. I hit send before finishing/editing.

Two more points occurred to me: First, the fact that "same sex marriage" has entered the general vocabulary is very good. To have this phrase exist means it is no longer an impossibility. Years ago, it would have been as puzzling and nonsensical as "blue sunflower." They are using our language, for a change.

Second, I think the term "human rights" is better than "equal rights" for this reason: humanity is something we are born with and nothing anyone can do will take away the fact that one is human. This is not the case with equality, as we are all aware. Using "equal rights" admits the possibility of inequality in a way that "human rights" does not. Using the term "human rights" takes away their power to deny equal rights.

Love,
Kaye
113. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 1:55 am

There were some shows ahead of their time that addressed the issue of GLBT community and some of the Soap Operas during daytime TV did the same. All My Children and the one evening show (that was a soap opera -"The Colby's" (that name doesn't sound right – the show was a spin-off from Dallas.
Love, David
114. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:57 am

When I was a newspaper editor, we called those sarcasti-quotes. They implied that what you were saying was not what you meant at all.

Love,
Fiona
115. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 1:58 am

Second, I think the term “human rights” is better than “equal rights” – I never thought of it before in those terms, but you are correct. Love, David
116. David Crane | February 13, 2010 at 1:59 am

Huh, the news polls and these comments have made me realize I'm a little backward. I usually say "gay" for the sake of convenience, but in the past (and maybe still?) I've preferred "homosexual." "Gay" has always seemed to have political connotations to me – I feel like I'm identifying myself with a stereotype and a movement rather than identifying my sexual behavior – and I feel uncomfortable with the fact that "gay" is used pejoratively so much. "Queer" used to be my least favorite, but is now a label I have grown to like. It no longer has much currency as a pejorative term, and it feels like the most inclusive term to me, though it may have a radical connotation that puts some people off. Does anyone know how "queer" does in the polls?
117. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 2:03 am

My personal favorite: "If you walk your kid to school because you are in the same grade."

My husband's favorite: "If you've ever been too drunk to fish."

I love Jeff Foxworthy.

Love,
Fiona
118. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 2:03 am

The "Religious" people of our nation only use these legitimate quotes to "properly define" what "God" has already "ordained". I "object" to "liberal" "leftist" who "think" "that" "these" "quotes" "are" "being" "used" "completely" "out" "of" "context".
119. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 2:06 am

Richard, it astounds me that certain people cannot see the parallels between what they support and the Nuremberg Laws … especially when they are spelled out for them.

The Nuremberg Laws specified who was allowed to be legally married. That was the first step in Hitler's so-called "Final Solution," which had the support of the majority of voters because the Jewish people had been scapegoated as the cause of all societal woes.

Gosh, doesn't that sound familiar?

Love,
Fiona (who also understands that one can be ethnically Jewish)
120. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 2:11 am

"Move" to "Strike"……<3…Ronnie
121. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 2:13 am

You know, Kay, I was doing really well at ignoring your bullshit until I read this: nature ensures that the afflicted die without making any contribution to the gene pool. I’m relatively certain that your intent isn’t to point out that homosexuality is a naturally-occurring dead end.

For someone who likes to think of herself as being so smart, I am astonished that you are unaware of a little concept called inclusive fitness. You see, madame, not all Darwinian fitness has to do with reproduction. Those who do not or cannot reproduce do *indeed* contribute to the gene pool, via inclusive fitness (aka reciprocal altruism). Perhaps a scholarly article on the matter will help you: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=…

Quote: Support is strongest, however, for the hypothesis that homosexual behavior comes from individual selection for reciprocal altruism. Same-sex alliances have reproductive advantages, and sexual behavior at times maintains these alliances. Nonhuman primates, including the apes, use homosexual behavior in same-sex alliances, and such alliances appear to have been key in the expanded distribution of human ancestors during the Pleistocene. Homosexual emotion and behavior are, in part, emergent qualities of the human propensity for same-sex affiliation.

Now, don't you have some children to abduct in Nicaragua or something?

Love,
Fiona
122. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 2:15 am

That is a beautiful song, Richard.
123. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 2:19 am

My husband said the same thing quite a while ago when someone asked why he supported "gay rights." He said, "I don't support gay rights, I support *human* rights. That's what we're talking about here."

Love,
Fiona
124. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 2:22 am

doah!!!!…..PWND…..Fiona64…you are my hero…<3…Ronnie
125. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 3:27 am

@41
It's hard, Richard, because although the government is widely regarded as the source of protection for every one of life's misfortunes, there is sufficient resistance against the government gaining enough power to fully implement this perceived responsibility that it isn't yet able to put a chicken in every pot, a free healthcare card in every pocket, and a phone number for a government fixer in every phone book. And you are correct that I was one of those opposed to the government gaining that sort of power and am pleased that it seems that the attempt has had a stake driven through its heart for the moment. Not that I was happy about the methods that brought it about, mind you.
126. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 3:33 am

sorry that was in the wrong space…. it was a Q for my dopty-daddy…… am I right dopty-daddy?…..<3…Ronnie
127. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 3:36 am

@73
Um… what? I don't seem to recall hearing of the LDS church or the "fundevanaglists" asking a court to strike down a law enacted by a numerical majority of a state's voters.
Proven in what way, Richard? There are Jews of multiple different racial backgrounds because although it is difficult, a person of any racial background can become and adherent of Judaism.
128. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 3:41 am

@82
Actually, that's a result of my daily schedule: I am most free to get online and do a lot of writing in the morning and the late evenings, generally from 9 PM – 2 AM PST. Sort of takes the wind out of the "Team KM" theory if it was ever all that logical of a theory.
129. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 3:42 am

ZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!! Judaism is a religion…..Jewish is a race….der…..tardy for clath….pft!….<3…Ronnie
130. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 3:43 am

Well, Kay Moore, from your last comment it shows a flagrant disregard for the facts. Pleas see this link:
http://www.mormonproposition.com/trailer.html
131. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 3:45 am

The consensus of the majority of P8TT…is "pwnd" swatzy…who comes in the night….to incoherently and underhandedly attack….am I right friends of mine only?…..<3…Ronnie
132. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 3:53 am

Yes, Ronnie, WE stand with you! Love, David
133. JQ | February 13, 2010 at 3:55 am

"Do you favor or oppose heterosexuals serving OPENLY in the military?"

Let's see if that drops a few percentage points!

<3 Jacqui
134. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 3:55 am

@42
Be serious, Felyx. Do you honestly expect that if you characterize my comments as false, inflammatory, "making sh-tuff up to appear intelligent on message boards", "Doctors are not smart enough to know who gets estrogen without a letter on a drivers license", asserting tradition and "one more chance to imply a gay agenda of homophobia", none of which you make any serious attempt to back up, that you can end the post with "leave me alone" and have it respected? I'm afraid you are gravely mistaken if you believe that to be the case. I have no trouble letting someone else have the last word but if their last word is blowing raspberries, I'm disinclined to leave it alone.
135. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:01 am

Thank you, sis. Unfortunately, I hit the wrong button before I got it all typed in, and had to continue it in a second post beginning with the chorus. And yet, just as I will stand b BenZion until my death, so will I lso stand beside all my LGBTQQI brothers and sisters and or allies until my death to make sure that we gain our full human rights, and will also stand beside others who are seeking to overthrow the oppression that is so often caused by misinterpretation and misuse of the scriptures. So if anybody tries to boher anyone her, they will find out about the fury of a pissed off rainbowneck!
136. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 4:02 am

@85
And it astounds me that some people have to flee towards Nazi and Hitler analogies for their opponents when it is those opponents who are supposedly guilty of "hate".
137. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:03 am

Be serious, Felyx….Do you honestly expect that even though your characterization of "Its" comments as false, inflammatory and making shite up to appear intelligent on MB's to agree with you?……I have made the same request as you…."it" even got banned but low-and-behold…shoop shoop shoop……..I am not disinclined to believe that "it" is a hacker….<3…Ronnie
138. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:05 am

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck it must be a QUACK!!!!……right David K……<3…Ronnie
139. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 4:06 am

And for someone who regards herself as so smart, I'm astounded that you spent so much time explaining an argument I was calling, by implication, absurd is incorrect.
140. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:08 am

@ #12. David, you are right, there was a show called "The Colbys," but it was a spin-off of "Dynasty" (Joan Collins, Linda Evans, John Forsythe, et al.) not "Dallas." The "Dallas" spin-off was "Knot's Landing."
141. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:10 am

Exactly, fiona. I remember that from jr. high composition and rhetoric classes. Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten the proper terminology for them.
142. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:12 am

And fiona…you are 100% right….the majority, actually all except for 1 or 2 regard you has smart and I am astounded that at how something that has been banned blah blah blah….you know the rest fiona64….its is implied that "it" is absurd and incorrect….right dopty-mommy?…..<3…Ronnie
143. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 4:13 am

Actually, no, never got banned, Ronnie. That's because blog admins aren't blind and can tell the difference between a "team" Kay, George, and a single person.
144. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 4:14 am

@David
I clicked on the link, saw the video, didn't see anything that even addressed, much less refuted, anything I said. Interesting.
145. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:16 am

Interesting David K…..that a bigot just keeps proving that it only sees what it want and hears what it wants…right David K?…..<3…Ronnie
146. Michelle Evans | February 13, 2010 at 4:18 am

I appreciate the comments and the support. Ronnie, your friend in Tennessee really had it bad because that is also one of the majority of states in America where, even after transition, you are not allowed to change your gender marker on any documents. Here in California we are only one of about 12 states that do allow that to occur, even all the way back to our birth certificates. Every piece of ID I have, all the way to my federal passport and social security documents now show properly who I am.

I'm glad that in some ways the trans world has not come to the attention of the fundies because they would probably be coming after people such as myself to make sure that those markers were never allowed to be changed in any state.

Last year, after my accident that left me with two broken legs, I spent a month in a nursing home. It took a lot of persuasion by my insurance to even allow me into that facility since they wanted to put me in a non-private room with other men! This was after full transition, both medically and legally, yet these jerks still didn't get it. I told them they could put me in a room with another woman, but they would have none of that either. In the end they decided to put me in a private room, but because of that my care suffered greatly because they wanted me out of there as soon as possible because they were losing a lot of money by not having one or two others stacked into that room with me. I could go on and on about this horror story, but won't bore anyone with it here.
147. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:19 am

Was I talking to "it" NO!!!!!!!!…..but now since "it" has mentioned another lie…..several of us have received emails that "it" was banned……hacker alert!….<3…Ronnie
148. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:21 am

You are so right, Felyx. Especially when thee samepeople wuld not allow the12 that Jesus cose to be part of his minstry to perform those roles today because first, they had not been to the "proper" seminaries, and secondly because they had not been to seminary at all. Who are they to attempt to read G-d's mind? I don't try to read G-d's mind, because every time I do, I get it wrong, and she just laughs at me. And she has a wicked laugh!
149. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:22 am

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&vg… Here is a web address, if you are interested in telling the Mormon Church what you think of their sanctimonious garbage. I just spent about 15 minutes there, writing a long message to them, asking about them and their involvement in the Prop8 campaign. I would like to spread the word to others, so if you know of someone, who would like to write to them, this is the only method. They do not accept e-mails, so feel free to comment in the box provided. Love, David
150. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:23 am

I love Foxworthy, too. Especially because his humorous take on things in the reneck realm was like giving me permission to laug at myself and my own foibles.
151. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 4:25 am

And "It" is forever grateful that you're around to make "it" look good with your incoherent replies, Ronnie. Keep up the good work.
152. Michelle Evans | February 13, 2010 at 4:25 am

Richard, I am extremely happy to know that you are one of those who know the true story about what happened at Stonewall. It is considered as the moment in time that started the entire civil rights movement for gays, yet most always neglect the fact that it was, in fact, started by the trans people–in this case, specifically the drag queens–who fought back against the police brutality.

At first the trans people were welcomed as part of the whole movement, but not long afterward, like with ENDA and so much else, we were thrown under the bus and told to get lost, that we were too freaky even for gays and lesbians.

It has literally only been in the last 5 or so years that places like gay and lesbian centers have started opening their doors to trans people, as we were pretty much outcasts amongst everyone. Take note of the fact that out of all the organizations across America that support LGBT rights and our community, not a single one that I am aware of actually has a "T" or "trans" anywhere in its name.
153. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:27 am

I'm not bored…Michelle….I read the whole thing word for word….you're story will help some kid who is/has/will go through the same things…..Step on that soap box honey….its better then reading these incoherent lies of prop hate propaganda and speculation…so speak out we(and by we I mean the good humans) will all read your story and take from it what we can…..<3…Ronnie
154. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:27 am

It's okay, Ronne, We all make mistakes. Even the bigots trolling here. And yes, there is an i in bigot. What is absent in bigot, is "we". That is what always ends various forms of bigotry, the fact that we can do together what I cannot do alone. We can all spread the word about what love truly means in all of the various aspects that ware represented by the many words the Greek language has for the different types of love, and we can also demonstrate them. And as we do this together, as a team, we make progess at a faster rate than if we were doing this alone. ♥♥
155. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:30 am

Yeppers, that works for me, Ronnie! Love, David
156. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:32 am

Apparently "it" is the only one who believes that….what is incoherent about "several of us have received emails that "it" was banned"….am I right David K.?…..<3…Ronnie

P.S. "it" is the only thing on this blog that thinks "it" looks good….well so does Heidi Montauk(spelling) but the consensus is "MAUDE!!!!"
157. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:32 am

Yeppers, I think it's a duck in an elephant costume, though! LOL Love, David
158. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:34 am

Actually, KM, nothing would make you look good. Not even Joan Rivers' plastic surgeon.
159. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:34 am

Well, Kay Moore, I think that proves our point, an idiot is born every minute!
160. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:40 am

There is no "we" in we are the people………wait?

"Why Love is a many splendored thing. Love lifts us up where we belong. All you need is Love" (bursts out into song)…..<3…Ronnie
161. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:40 am

Yeppers, you got it right, Ronnie! Love, David
162. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:42 am

BWAAAA!!!……..David K………ROTFLMGAO!!!!!…Ooooo I think I just lost 10 pounds……<3…Ronnie
163. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:44 am

Thanx, Ronnie, I thought it was rather good, myself. Do you think Kay is going to "mass the troops and yell, "CHARGE!"
Love, David
164. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:45 am

I can't…OMG!!!!…now I need to brew another cup of coffee…preferably with some Kahlua….mmmm…<3…Ronnie
165. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:47 am

Hey, that does sound like a good idea – it is just a little before noon here, so I will join you in the kaluha thing in the coffee! Love, David
166. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:48 am

@ #98. Kay, the two groups mentioned have their own methods of overturning righteousness. It is the same method employed by Hitler during his reign of terror in Europe. Repeat the lies often enough, and make them large enough, and people will buy what you are selling. That helps to overturn what the majority truly wants, not only because they convince their sheeple to get out to the polls, but their tactics turn everyone else off and cause them to avoid the polls. And I for one will cast my ballots at the one-stop in my area where I do not have to go into the local mormon facility, because while I will not be deprived of my right to vote, I will also not allow myself to go against my religious teachings by going into a place that is sacreligious to my beliefs, and the mormons believe in the trinity, which is idolatrous to my faith.

On another note, while there are people who can convert to Judaism, the religion alone does not make one a Jew according to some ultraorthodox sects. And yes, there are those who marry outside of the semitic race of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet there have bee studies done on the DNA from tose who have not married outside the lineage, and as a control, some where there has been intermarriage, and there were significant chromosomal distinctions that are particularly seen only in those who are ethnically Jewish. There are many who do not necessarily practice the religious part of our heritage, and there are also many who may have been adopted into households that were not Jewish and did not realize their heritage until adulthood, and this group also accounts for many conversions. You see, if one is not raised according to the halakah, one still must go throgh the ger, even if one is born Jewish. There are also those whose ancestry includes mixtures because of the times the Jews were enslaved and forced to marry outside the race. So do try not to make such blanket statements again until you have consulted with someone who is on the inside looking out. I have the texts in my own home to back this up, and my husband is a Lubavitcher rabbi, which makes me the fagelah rebbitizen. Howevr, after this, I will attempt to refrain from entering into a battle of wits with unarmed persons. So long, Team KM, and have a good day.
167. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:49 am

Do they have credit at Walmart?……lol….<3…Ronnie
168. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 4:49 am

@#130. Fiona, I don't think she has the money to get to Nicaragua to abduct children just now. She is still paying off the loan to bail her mother out in Haiti.
169. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 4:52 am

Ronnie, the Duck comment…so classic!!!! From now on all Kay Moore comments get nothing more than a Quack!!
170. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:54 am

Ta-Oh!…Shite….Brava….dopty-daddy…I'm surpised I didn't come up with that one…..lol…..<3…Ronnie
171. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 4:55 am

Yeppers, that works for me, I am back with my kaluha coffee…yummers! Love, David Quack
172. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 4:56 am

LMAO!!!!…..I'm down for that Felyx…..<3…Ronnie
173. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 4:58 am

DAMN KAY!!! TOTAL PWNAGE!!! Gay is natural, beautiful, beneficial AND SCIENTIFICALLY VALID!!!!!!

WTG Fiona! Can't wait to hear the furious Quacking sure to erupt over this one!!!!
174. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 5:01 am

Heck…..Its 5 O'clock PM somewhere….lol…….<3…Ronnie
175. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 5:08 am

yeppers, that works for me! ROFLMAO
176. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 5:20 am

@110. And why does it astound you, Kay? Are you incapable of handling the truth behind those analogies? Or are you unable to see that the next step here is exactly what Hitler did during his reign? After all, his "final solution" cost millions of people their lives–Jews, LGBTQQI's, tose with mental and physical challenges, the elderly, and anyone who tried to help keep those people out of the Nazi death camps. How is pointing out the facts an the similar progressions "hate"? Explain that one to me. But then you cannot give a logical explanation to that. All you can do is repeat the rantings of your herder, just like all other sheeple who refuse to acknowledge that maybe someone else has a valid point. I do not fell hatred toward you, only pity because you are so intentionally blind to the facts and what this means not only for LGBTQQI's in Amerca, but for EVERYONE, including yourself. Remember, you too are protected under Shepard-Byrd. If someone attacks you because of your gender identity or expression, or attacks you because of your sexual orientation, or if they attack you because of your race, if they attack you because of a disability you have, or a disability that they think you have, if they attack you because of any reason that they see you as "the other" you are also protected under Shepard-Byrd. That is not quite the picture of Shepard-Byrd that those who are in favor of Prop H8 painted of the federal hate crimes law, now is it?
177. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 5:27 am

Michelle, part of the reason I know the true history of Stonewall is because my first husband was friends with several of the drag queens, drag kings, and other trans people who were part of that overthrow of tyranny, and I got to hear about it from those who were there. And as I have posted earlier, I have also done drag in my past. I enjoyed it, even though for me it was more about being able to sing the songs I wanted to sing at a time when it was not accetable for a man to sing country love songs about other men. And maybe for now it still isn't fully acceptable to do that, but I do see changes coming. If you are able to afford it, or can get help, I would love it if you could come out here when we get some events planned for the Cumberland County, NC Equality Team and help me get the trans community to participate. for me, that would be a real picker-upper, and it would show people more of the diveristy in the LGBTQQI community.
178. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 5:33 am

hey dopty-daddy and my lovely Michelle…..I didn't mention this but the Stonewall Inn is one of the bars I use to work at 3 years ago….So I know a lot about this but you guys are older then me so I let you do the talking…..When My proff. in U.S. History talked about this in class…I stood up and said…"No No No honey!….You are wrong….I worked at that bar for 2 & 1/2 years….let me tell the class some stories"… I PWND that class and that proff….I got a "A"…for the class…and became a guess speaker until I graduated……<3…Ronnie
179. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 5:34 am

I have several trans friends, and have learned so much from them about all kinds of issues (including gender and history). I'm grateful to have their perspective, and yours too Michelle.

The MCC where I participate just concluded the third annual transgender sermon series. If anyone is interested, a lot of is on YouTube and can be checked out at this link: http://mccsj.org/?cat=11

Love,
Fiona
180. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 5:55 am

Yes, and considering this is a duck the size of an elephant, it will be a loud quack. After all, we are talking about something the size of Baby Huey!
181. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 5:59 am

hahaha….that was a good one….<3…Ronnie
182. Michelle Evans | February 13, 2010 at 6:10 am

We have a really wonderful group of people on this site (with a couple of notable exceptions, of course!), and from myself, I want to thank those of you who have been supportive of the T in LGBT, as well.

If anyone is interested in learning more about being trans, I used to write a column on this issue and have everything archived on my web site at:
http://www.mach25media.com/sexed101.html

Hope this is helpful in understanding some of our issues.
183. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 6:12 am

thank you I will bookmark it….Kisses……<3…Ronnie
184. J. Stone | February 13, 2010 at 6:43 am

I'm sure "queer" is frowned upon. Within the gay community, "queer" can be a sort of badge of pride, identifying you as a radical bad-a$$ that doesn't take any $hit. But to society generally, "queer" sounds about as good as "fag." Just my opinion, but I think I'm right on. (Of course, who doesn't? )
185. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 7:33 am

Richard, she's trying to pull the old "Godwin's Law" thing, which basically says that any time you refer to Hitler in an argument, you automatically lose. Unfortunately, Godwin doesn't apply when the situations are actually analogous.

I apologize to anyone for whom this link may be triggering.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holoc…
186. Frijondi | February 13, 2010 at 8:00 am

Well, I'm late to the discussion here, but will toss in my $0.02. For a good many years, I have preferred the term "homosexual" to "gay" or "lesbian" for myself, not due to any internalized homophobia, but because it's direct and to the point, and people actually know what it means.

I have only started avoiding it because the religious right has made such a point of using it instead of gay, because they consider it a negative term. (They bitch and moan about how the homosexuals have ruined two ordinary words meaning "happy" and "resident of a certain Greek island;" however, I'm pissed off at them for ruining "homosexual.")

Why would I prefer homosexual to gay or lesbian? For one thing, I've found that as a woman, it's very hard to get some people to believe me when I say, "I'm gay" or "I'm a lesbian." What they hear is, "I'm bi, and might be interested in a threesome," or "I'm kinky, and would definitely be interested in doing something unspeakable with you and the contents of your vegetable drawer, even though you're a man." Neither is true. In my experience, the only thing that stops this kind of thinking in its tracks is to say, "I am homosexual." The h-word cuts through a lot of baloney.

Another reason I'm fond of the h-word is that I don't identify strongly with what is sometimes referred to as gay culture or the gay community, particularly the lesbian branch thereof. Until very recently, the most visible parts of the gay world have been strongly subcultural; this has even created the impression among many gay people I know that gayness is just as much about fitting into a subculture as it is about being attracted to the same sex. (I was once told, only semi-jokingly, that I was not a true lesbian because I don't like softball.) At times, I have preferred to use the term homosexual simply to avoid the cultural baggage (music, politics, team sports, etc.) that often comes along with "gay" or "lesbian."
187. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 8:38 am

Dear Frijondi,

Funny you should mention that. It reminds me of an incident from so long ago. I had a former Miss-whatever with breast implants come on to me until I finally flat out told her I was gay.

For some reason she took that to mean (I'm guessing) that I was open for her to try to convert me! Finally I told her that I only did homosexual things for personal activites and that I was only straight for pay.

(She actually pulled out a checkbook until I showed her an actual price guide and told her I was serious.)

Funny how saying homosexual has a completely different meaning!!!!

Felyx
188. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:46 am

Caprica. One of the main characters is married to a guy and they have a son as well. (Rumors are abound they in the pink mafia.) But Caprica (mind you, this is set on a different planet) also has open and legal "group marriages" as well. They fully explore a wide range of social topics, many of which are considered quite taboo on this planet.
189. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:47 am

They also refer to it as "so-called 'domestic partnerships'". Really? You have to use "so-called" and scare quotes around DP as well?
190. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:49 am

Republicans are very adept at that, like calling it a "death tax" instead of estate tax, or the "Healthy Forest Initiative" which involves cutting all the trees down.
191. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:51 am

I'm hoping to my deity that the prop 8 folks get raked over the coals by the judges for this. Prop 8 was failing in the polls until they pulled out a can of ugly and started smearing hateful stereotypes all over the place.
192. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:53 am

They use it as a way of refocusing it from "why do what people down the block matter" to "OMG they're going to change the way I live!"
193. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:56 am

Merriam Webster defines marriage as:

mar·riage (n) (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage

The definition wasn't redefined, it was appended. For those in a "traditional" marriage, their lives are completely unaffected.
194. Joe | February 13, 2010 at 8:59 am

Not to mention "homosexual" defines me by one mere aspect of my life. But I don't want to marry my partner just for sex, but every aspect of him, so gay is far preferable.
195. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 9:01 am

But in their latest editions, the dictionaries have begun to switch sides—though until recently, no one seemed to have much noticed. The American Heritage Dictionary, Black's Law Dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary, and Webster's have all added same-sex unions to their definitions of marriage.* The right-wing Web site WorldNetDaily broke the news in March about Webster's, reporting that the dictionary had "resolved the argument" over gay marriage by applying the ancient term "to same-sex duos."

Black's Law Dictionary is generally what it used to define in the law and here is an excerpt from http://www.slate.com/id/2215628/

Love, David
196. David Kimble | February 13, 2010 at 9:18 am

I am not certain in exact terms, but there is a legal definition of each gender and recently the legal definitions have come to recognize Gay, Lesbian, Transgendered, in terms of the law.
197. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 9:54 am

Thanks, sis. What is really ironic is that I seem to remember on several occasions, the trolls, including the last team left here, referring to Hitler and Nazism in reference to our side. So apparently, they can say it but we can't, is that right? To quote the Carrie Underwood song, "The More Boys I Meet (the more I love my dog)" from the CD Carnival Ride, "I don't think so." If they can reach for that connection when it is batantly false, I can point it out when it is the truth. But they don't like it when we point out the truth, because it burns them.
198. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 9:58 am

dopty-daddy…I have made that point quite often…they call us derogatory names and make underhanded statements and false accusations but when we do it to them we are wrong (and by we I mean LGBT and straight)…..hypocrites…<3…Ronnie
199. Lori | February 13, 2010 at 11:44 am

Interesting point. I personally prefer to use the term bisexual (or the short form "bi") to describe myself, but I find myself using "queer" relatively often. I don't really see myself as much of a radical.
I'm not sure how well it's viewed in the older generations (I'm 18), but among people close to my age, I mostly see it used as a catchall term for LGB – for example, several of the colleges I looked at used "queer" in the naming of their campus LGBT groups (eg Queer Resource Center, Queer-Straight Alliance).
200. Lori | February 13, 2010 at 11:58 am

"Before you decide what attracts you, how do you know which gender it belongs to?"

Interesting point, Kay. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here though… are you saying that it's possible to be inherently attracted to someone of the same sex or are you saying that people decide who/what to be attracted to?
201. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 12:40 pm

So'm I.
202. Zyle | February 13, 2010 at 12:43 pm

Wow. I have been using the term "homosexual" because I considered it the most neutral ("gay" and "fag" being the biased terms).
203. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:45 pm

Quack!!!!!!!!!!
204. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 12:48 pm

Natural, yes, Beneficial, perhaps. Beautiful depending on the observer. Still waiting for PWNage.
205. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 12:51 pm

Quack!!!!….Quack!!!!
206. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 12:56 pm

@#135. Well, the coffee laced with Kahlua would explain some of your comments, TKM.
207. Moore, K-Y | February 13, 2010 at 1:05 pm

@ Kay Moore
what is your religion? do you even have one…i am curious to know. also did you say you were republican? did you vote for mcain palin? what are your thoughts on palin…i want to know if you liked her….platform.
mostly tell me if you are a christian and if you are which denomination. i can tell you are not jewish…no jew would ever talk like you. also do you go to church if you are christian.
yes i am spoofing your name but i still want to know if you are a christian and if so what denomination.
208. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:08 pm

It astounds me because of how blind the analogy is to its own blatant logical fallacy. It argues that A necessarily follows B because in completely different circumstances that present ones do not resemble, A indeed followed B. The Final Solution is irrelevant to the discussion and someone with a proper grasp of the facts and a rational sense of proportion would be aware of this. How is the analogy "hate"? Really, you need me to answer that for you? You ask me why it's "hateful" to compare enacting a traditional limitation on marriage to the first step a grisly mass murderer took towards industrial executions of 6 million people? It's really quite a sad commentary on the tolerance and open-mindedness of a person that it has to be explained to them why casual comparisons of people to Hitler, essentially calling a person a monster by implication, is hateful.
I am only protected in theory under Shepard-Byrd; legal precedent dictates that irregardless of how broad the language of a bill is, only the class intended to be protected at the time of the bill's enactment can be protected by it. It is true that universal protection is not the picture of Shepard-Byrd that those in favor of Proposition 8 have painted of federal hate crimes law but this is because those people are aware of the ruling legal precedent.
209. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:09 pm

Quack Quack Quack Quack!!!!!
210. Frijondi | February 13, 2010 at 1:09 pm

Dear Felyx —

You had a price guide???? You should have told her there was a markup because of the implants.

Frijondi
211. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:13 pm

Quack, quack, quack.
212. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:15 pm

There is no such word as irregardless.
213. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 1:17 pm

AFLAC! AFAC! AFLAC!! AFLAC!!!
214. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 1:17 pm

I know this sounds strange Ronnie, but your comment just makes SOOOO much sense! It might be the fact that it follows near meaningless pseudo-intellectualism but it is clearly related to the simplistic brevity with which you have summed up the issue!

Bravo!

Confusionous say: Woman who fly upside down-All Quacked Up!
215. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:19 pm

indubitably…….<3….Ronnie
216. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:22 pm

Ronnie, it is beyond me how someone cannot see that laws which say "only these people are allowed to marry" are directly analogous to laws which say "only these people are allowed to marry."

Quack, quack, quack indeed.

Love,
Fiona
217. Moore, K-Y | February 13, 2010 at 1:23 pm

hey Moore woman-person who ever you are….

what is your religion? do you have one or do you just talk like a bipolar homeless person with half an education all the time? seriously…i want to know which faith you are representin here. i want to know if you are a christian or not. it is a simple question. faith and denomination please.
218. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:25 pm

Both, actually. Science has established that certain shapes and colors have significant and very broad psychological effects and that these effects are inborn. But someone who finds normally-shaped women or somewhat chubby women more attractive than the typical idealized beauty sold in fashion magazines decided that they prefer something different than the typical heterosexual male/homosexual female. There are some characteristics of shape that can be found in both genders; there are others that are only found in one or the other. I tend to believe that someone decides what forms are most appealing to them long before they assign a gender to those appealing forms. Certain things are beyond our control, like being soothed by "warm" colors and soft calm music but determining what appeals most strongly to us is a very delightful thing to have a choice about.
219. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:25 pm

http://www.forwardedge.org/about/kay.shtml
220. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:28 pm

Actually, I'm a teetotaler but thanks for your concern.
221. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:29 pm

Quack Quack Quack….quack quack…..QuaaaaacK!!!!
222. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 1:29 pm

And actually, if you will look at it, the first ones Hitler went after, even before he began with the Jews, were the LGBTQQI commnity. Much the same way that the radical reich(t) wing is going after us here in the US. You see, I have studied this for a long time, Team KM. Part of my biological heritage is German. I wanted to know what happened so that I would be better prepared to prevent it from happening again. Hitler killed Jews, Catholics, LGBTQQI people, people with mental challenges, people with physical handicaps, people who were not in the physical health he wanted, people who were older than he wanted in the Reich, and he also killed those he found hiding these people or helping them to escape. And if we do no stand up to those wo are misusing the words of HaShem and the words of Yeshua ben Yosef, the same thing will happen here in the US. Now, by laying all of this out for you, rather than letting you blindly follow the dictations of the revisionists, how is that a logical fallacy? And how is it hatred on my part to do so? Is it not actually a kindness to educate someone to something that could help save that person's life, even if the person whose life you are trying to save rejects your help at first? I only hope you wake up to the facts before it is too late.
223. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:31 pm

Quackety Quack!!!……quack is quack!!!……<3….Ronnie
224. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:32 pm

Oh, of course. "Science has established …" but no references.

Quack, quack, quack.
225. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:35 pm

My religion is monotheistic and yes, I have one. I'm a registered Republican but didn't vote for McCain/Palin. My thoughts on Palin is that she is a buffoon and that everyone that despises the Republicans should be praying that she's the next presidential nominee because she's a sure loser. I pay no attention to her platform because I have no intention of supporting whatever witch's brew of positions she eventually comes up with.
I claim to be Christian (I've never met a Christian who agrees) but while I do go to church, I only stay long enough to hear an announcement of who'll be preaching that day before heading off to the local bookstore to read graphic novels (my current favorite is the Civil War mini-series published by Marvel).
226. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:38 pm

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardle…
According to the Random House Dictionary and The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition you're incorrect about the nonexistence of the word "irregardless", Fiona. I'm shocked, really I am.
227. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:41 pm

Neato! There's actually a person named "Kay Moore" out there. A shame that no one was listening when I explained that "Kay" represents the letter "K", not a name.
228. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:41 pm

Excuse me, dear. The fact that an incorrect word is included in a dictionary because ignorant people use it matters absolutely not at all to me.

"Irregardless," when taken apart orthographically means "without without regard." In other words, it is oxymoronic. The correct word is *regardless.*

You're welcome.
229. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:44 pm

Well, of COURSE it doesn't matter to you Fiona. Thus far, that you're shaky on facts hasn't bothered you too much.
230. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:44 pm

aweee…Molly and Evan and Jake….those are great names…..I like outside activities too like skiing and surfing, I run a lot, I've been white water rafting, and rock climbing, and cliff diving(that was really fun)….I like to spend time with my family too…..a little etymology :

Molly-a small livebearing freshwater fish…
Evan mean young strong warrior….good strong name
Jake – mean heel grabber (enough said)

Thank you fiona64 that link was quite an education…..<3….Ronnie
231. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:45 pm

When a quack goes quack ….it is all that it is quacked up to be….Quack!!!!!!…..<3….Ronnie
232. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:46 pm

Kay, if you look at the link you provided (I know, reading is not your strong suit), you will see that is says NONSTANDARD. Now, I know that this is hard for you to understand — that's a nice way of saying "this is not correct."

Now, bugger off. The adults are trying to talk and you're just quacking.
233. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:48 pm

Ronnie, I'm always amused when the person who can't provide a single source to back up her opinions and claims some moral rectitude for her bigotry claims that *other people* are shaky on facts. Isn't that interesting?

And, as I said the other day, "That is not mine" is the claim of every tweaker caught with dope in their pockets by a police officer.

Love,
Fiona
234. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:49 pm

Oh a fiona64…..the word being "Random" House Dictionary..ummm….how random….. quacking baldwin….as if…..lol…..<3…Ronnie
235. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:49 pm

PS to Kay: I understand they have picture dictionaries. Perhaps that will help you.
236. Kay Moore | February 13, 2010 at 1:50 pm

I think I'll frame that and put it on my wall, Fiona… right next to the time you tried prove me wrong about HIV infection by linking to articles that directly contradicted you.

Well, see, that's why I'm here… the conversation needs an adult to monitor it.
237. fiona64 | February 13, 2010 at 1:53 pm

Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack.
238. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 1:53 pm

The consensus is Quacking PAWND…no mensrea….."Where you got in the shower?"
239. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 2:00 pm

Quack!!!!….the owners of Marvel Comics support LGBT rights….Quack!!!….half christian….Quack!!!….OMG I actually agree with something "it" Quacked….Palin is buffoon…. ipecac….I need ipecac…..barf barf….water water….Quack!!…<3…Ronnie
240. Moore, K-Y | February 13, 2010 at 2:23 pm

ok, first off Fiona,

fiona you are freakin awesome! you are like internet info queen. i have been following your posts for some time and i am impressed. your information is good and so is your heart. clearly you are not christian in a religious sense but you are one in spirit. kudos to you. i would not you in my church and you would not want me in your ceremonial circle but i think we can agree that faith and religion is something for the individual to have and use for personal developement. i love you fiona and you are welcome in my home. props sister. peace.

Richard

richard, with the rabbi husband, i know of lubavitch (son of love) and his heart and his faith was good. again we have religious differences that are not really significant since we are both TRUE christian at heart! don't get married in my church and i won't tell you who to marry. agreed im sure. regards the kay-modo dragon lady with the issues, give it up dude. it is true jews and gays and polish and catholics and too many others were slaughtered. deniers are liers and will burn in the fires themselves! it is true that ghetto laws and marriage laws were used to demean jews and deceive the populace into VOTING gitler into office. yes i will say it again, ghetto laws and marriage laws were purposely used by gitler and the nazis in order to scare people into VOTING for gitler and the nazi party. the laws themselves were used, not just fear mongering leaflets and fliers but the laws were used!!! gitler used fear and the law in order to impliment xenocide! jews had their rights taken away in order to systematically strip away citizenship and then rape them of everything they had. i am stunned to even hear ANYONE BUT A NEO-NAZI talk about this calmly. again richard give it up. don't waste your time. it seems to me you have better things to do than to argue with a moron. richard, if you believe in your cause then instead of arguing at least try to find out how she thinks so that you can convince younger less stubborn people how to see the truth and help them consider your point of view. richard props to you for fighting for what you believe in. i am not inclined to fight with you but i absolutely will not stand in your way! best of luck. peace.

Spiritual Death and D-Kay,

What is up with you? you are married and have three kids and you help orphans in poor countries….WHY THE Fuk-AHK ARE YOU ON THIS SITE?!!!! Voting against these people is personal choice but to sit on this site and ridicule them? this is NOT what God ever intended. and yes, you ridicule, you debase, you use false logic (look up wiki entry of logic and false logic…you use alot of it), you use false witness, you use scorn derisiveness sp. and worst of all you use words to try to disguise your true intention. there is no other reason for you to be on this site acting like this other than to Gay BASH! PITIFUL! PITIFUL IN MY EYES AND I AM SURE PITIFUL IN THE EYES OF THE LORD!!! If you are going to argue these people then do so with kindness and love. you do NOT do this so don't even pretend or argue that you do! Use real bible verse if you indeed even read a bible. use real doctorine from your faith, if you have one….shameful that fiona had to answer for you. if you are going to use philosophy and logic then use appropriate logic and real facts that are verifiable. shame on you that time and time again fiona and richard and others had to show you the truth. it is not meed for a woman of God to lie or deceive or be careless with the truth!!!! if you cannot live your faith in practice then who are you to comment on anyone else? Best to examine the 2×4 in your own eye before pointing out the splinters you think are in the eyes of others.

if you are a religious person the follow your religion. if you are a person of faith then have faith and stop persecuting others! (i am no fool, i am calling you out, there is no true intellectual discussion in you, you are persecuting! look the word up.) And lastly, the site fiona showed me was of a beautiful woman….what I see here is not. at best you are hurt and confused and feel you must "intellectually" bully these people, at worst you are deceived by the master of all lies and refuse to see yourself for who you are! Shame on you! Repent and show mercy to those who suffer! And before you open your self rightous mouth to argue as to who is suffering, the only way to verifiably know is to ask. it is the only true test of real suffering. if they say they suffer then they do. what is civil marriage to you? if you want a holy sanctified marriage then have one in your own church in your own faith. BUT STOP TORTURING THOSE WHO SUFFER!!!!!!!!!!

i will speak of myself for those who would know. i want to learn about gays and their beliefs. i think this gay marriage thing IS a struggle. i think gays are real, not confused straight people in denial. i think there are faiths that celebrate gays getting married even though mine does not. but then, i am not a gay. i feel that it is not right for me at this time to vote in favor but i will not stand in anyone elses way as my faith is strong enough to "survive" gay marriage. i am not really interested in talking further but i feel that Kay, expecially now that i saw here profile, does a disservice to all real people of faith. she is not living her faith, she gives bad name to religious life with her hypocracy and poor attitude. i am ashamed to look at that beautiful woman only to find the soul of a troll on this site. i wanted to speak up because having to go through more than ten posts per thread regarding her inanity is tiresome and counterproductive.

there. i have vented. comment if you want. Kay BE A WOMAN OF GOD FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR SOUL!!!!!

thank you for reading and listening,
william drolet
241. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 2:31 pm

Hmmm,

I recall Kay saying something about how she was waiting for the PWNAGE…….

Seems clear to me this is it!
242. Ronnie | February 13, 2010 at 2:35 pm

Woah!!!!
243. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 2:52 pm

@ #236. I will call you Moore, K-Y because that is what your posting handle is. Thank you for your support. Yes, I realize that it is pointless to argue with Team KM, but I also put the truth out there because I never know when some young person who is looking for support may actually come to this site and see what is posted. Yes, I know suffering, and I know joy. I find both in my real life, and also here among real friends that I have formed deep bonds with. I do not want to argue with that individual, yet, I feel I must do what I can to get the truth out so that someone who is strugglin will know that there is a safe place to go and say what s on his or her mind. My strength comes from my faith, my marriage (even though it is not yet LEGALLY recognized), my family and my P8TT family here. And we all stick together to fight injustice wherever we see it. Thank you for your kind words, and if we ever meet face to face, I will again thank you for what you have said. You have a solid gold heart and you will find a matching resting place when you reach heaven. You deserve no less. And you deserve the greatest happiness while here. ♥ ♥ ♥
244. Felyx | February 13, 2010 at 3:55 pm

Wow! I have totally lost all respect for Kay. I did actually have some and it increased when I saw here profile but after this comment. OMG!

"My religion is monotheistic and yes, I have one."

OMG!! Who denies their religion in America? Seriously. Even neo-nazis proclaim who they are! Anyone ashamed of there faith in America hasn't really got any!

And what is with the not giving of complete and honest answers!!! Are you afraid you will be persecuted for what you believe? Surely not you Kay!!!

"I claim to be Christian (I’ve never met a Christian who agrees)…"

Ummm…..that oughta tell ya something!

If you can't get one Christian to agree that you are Christian….THEN YOU'RE NOT!!!!! (OMG, I just know she is going to pointlessly argue me on this! Don't bother, I don't understand Quack!)

"…but while I do go to church, I only stay long enough to hear an announcement of who’ll be preaching that day before heading off to the local bookstore…"

(I know this is comically gratuitious, but still it must be done…)

IT IS NOT CALLED GOING TO CHURCH IF YOU DON'T ACTUALLY GO!!!!

I tried this logic once when I was a teenager.

In no possible permutation of the phrase 'go to church' did ANYONE even entertain the idea that staying for the first five minutes in any way constituted actually 'going to church'.

(If you are going to even attempt to argue the literal concreteness of going 'irregardless' of time spent then please understand that of the three languages that I speak fluently, the seven that I can grasp and survive with and the two that I sign, NOT ONE OF THEM IS QUACK!)

Kay, I believe you do good in the world. Your children probably say, "Oh don't mind her." behind your back but I am sure they love you. As a concerned person I would recommend what I have seen posted, look into yourself and find what makes you beautiful…like not being a souless troll troggling about on a GLBT site harassing people for personal thrills.

That being said, your presence here is truly a gift. I wonder how many Christians* look at your posts and think…Dear God! Am I like THAT?! Perhaps I have it all wrong…maybe my faith is more than some empty proclaimation. Surely I would not want to end up some old empty bag who trolls around irritating others because I have lost any sense of purpose in my life!!!

Well Kay, you were waiting for PWNAGE…..seems you didn't need any of us at all!

I guess the truth is all too evident, if you are not going to OWN youself you will just end up PWNing yourself….publically, in a very humiliating way, until you do own up and OWN yourself.

As the man said…Peace,
Felyx

*I was going to put 'real Christians' but I thought it might detract from the overall content. Christianity, as is commonly understood, is a community of faithful as defined in the bible where Jesus says, "Where two or three are gathered in my name I am there." Without more than one faithful then there is no Christ present and therefore no Christian present. It is not some solo thing done in bookstores with graphic novels. I say all this but I didn't really want to imply you were not Christian, and while your comments sure looked like that is what you were implying I was not sure. Anyway you work it, I didn't really want to start you into some quacking tirade of 'ducking' logic and reason and 'swimming' around the issue. I am learning russian and japanese right now and don't really have time to learn some useless and esoteric form of communi-quack-tion. Sorry…..yeah actually I'm not.

You best go before someone comes and drops a house on you.
245. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 2:48 am

Perhaps you've not been following the posting too closely, K-Y, but I am not married. Moreover, as I've said with increasingly clarity, Kay is my first initial, not my first name; thus, the profile Fiona dug up is of a woman older than me with a different hair color, a different religious affiliation, and who has been to Nicaragua. It's always hazardous to assume that if you can find a picture that goes with a name, that picture goes with the correct person with that name.
Lessee… there's no use in responding to the sundry theorizing about gay-bashing, false logic, false witness, debasement, what you see as truth, persecution, torture, hypocrisy, and trolling because it is little more than baseless ranting without a fig leaf to back it… which, by the by, is extremely ironic considering that one of the things you tried to pin on me was making statements without proof.
Have a nice day, William. I hope that the next time you put that much effort into a rant, you do so in possession of some modicum of fact.
246. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 2:50 am

Quack!!!!!!!
247. David Kimble | February 14, 2010 at 2:58 am

Kay, I cannot understand why you continue to belittle our community of trial trackers with your ramblings that I am preferred to believe can only amount to tantamount proof of animus, as was raised in the Courtroom. Furthermore, you are not going win any friends at this website by your continued bantering about so FO! Love, David
248. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 3:13 am

Oh, I'm not ashamed at all, Felyx. With so many folks going off the deep end on what they think I'm saying, I don't want this delightful funhouse atmosphere to end because I arm one of you with a fig leaf of a reason to go off the deep end. So I decided to be vague in my reply to K-Y and see what happened; the poor guy seems to have flown off the handle something fierce.

Oh, I do indeed do good in the world. I've contributed to numerous industrial projects in the few years since I graduated from high school as a consequence of my career path. However, as I pointed out to K-Y, I'm not the person whose online profile Fiona dug up; I am thus unmarried and have no children (which I've stated since the beginning of my presence in this blog).

Now, that would all depend upon their level of literacy and their willingness to read carefully, Felyx. Those who read carefully and completely will have little to no cause to be ashamed; those who read carelessly and then absorb all of the accompanying commentary, some of which accuses me of things that cannot be justified by quoting me, will feel great shame. This does not bother me at all because it is a weakness in others, not a weakness in me.

Atmen tief, suchen Sie Frieden.
249. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 3:13 am

I think "Kay Moore's" quackery brings up a good and valid point….the woman in the profile is indeed a good person and honest and clearly in not hiding her identity….we owe it to her (the real one) to respect her.

My salute to you REAL Kay Moore!!!

As for "K. Moore" and her pseudonymic cowardly kwacking (I fear using the work quack may be insulting to God's beautiful creature the duck), clearly she fears revealing herself for what she is.

All I can say to that is, according to the Junior Kwack-Scouts Handbook…

Kwacker kwack kwackin kwack kwack kwacketh!
250. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 3:16 am

MMMM!!!!… Quackers!!!…..<3…Ronnie
251. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 3:19 am

I am not concerned with gaining friends; I knew that to be impossible when I read the commentary previous to the commencement of my participation.
252. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 3:23 am

I fear nothing, Felyx. I just enjoy the identity that the community has assigned to me and feel no need to correct it.
253. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 3:24 am

Quack said the duck….bang said the rifle…..Quaaaackkkk into the marsh….Point does the beagle….swipe goes Elmer Fudd…..looks like theres duck for dinner….QUACK!!!
254. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 3:25 am

Quack!!…Quack!!!…Quack!!
255. David Kimble | February 14, 2010 at 3:32 am

Well, Kay, might I suggest a visit to the psychiatrist office, since obviously you have "martyr complex". Only someone with this disorder or a complete MORON, would continue to post comments at this site, given the volatile nature of your comments. They are clearly meant to find a target!
Love, David
256. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 3:54 am

Richtet nicht, auf dass ihr nicht gerichtet werdet!

Denn mit welcherlei Gericht ihr richtet, werdet ihr gerichtet werden; und mit welcherlei Mass ihr messet, wird euch gemessen werden. Was siehst du aber den Splitter in deines Bruders Auge, und wirst nicht gewahr des Balkens in deinem Auge? Oder wie darfst du sagen zu deinem Bruder: Halt, ich will dir den Splitter aus deinem Auge ziehen, und siehe, ein Balken ist in deinem Auge? Du Heuchler*, zieh am ersten den Balken aus deinem Auge; darnach siehe zu, wie du den Splitter aus deines Bruders Auge ziehst!

Alles nun, was ihr wollt, dass euch die Leute tun sollen, das tut ihr ihnen auch. Das ist das Gesetz und die Propheten.

(And here I would insert Intellektueller for Propheten but it stands well enough on its own.)

Seht euch vor vor den falschen Propheten, die in Schafskleidern zu euch kommen, inwendig aber sind sie reissende Wolfe!

*Heuchler-Literally hypocrite but sounds like Heckler in English…fitting no?!

Minus a few possible accent marks and the letter 'B' that is an ss I think my spelling is fairly dead on.

For Kay-wackt I have a rough summary translation.

Kvak kvak kvaken kvak kvakieren kvakt. Kvak kvakst nicht gekvaken!

(I though it would be difficult to learn Kwack, much less Kveutchaken but it has become clear to me that it is nothing more than a profuse number of large words thrown meaninglessly together in order to make a large fuss so as to subbornly hold ones ridiculous postition on a subject due to personal issues. When translated to human language it has the semblence of thought but after careful reading and close scrutiny it turns out to be nothing more than kwackery.)

As K says….Suchen Frieden….just not the kind that comes with marriage and equality before the law!!!

Suchen Sie Deise K!!!

(Everybody else, don't worry about Matthew 1-5, 12, 15…just keep focusing on Matthew 7:7!)
257. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 4:24 am

LOL! Maybe so.

In all honesty she was a very beautiful woman and didn't need them in my opinion. She wanted them because she did not feel attractive enough without them. It is further evidence that she may have had no interest in me personally but wanted to prove rather that she was beautiful enough to turn a 'gay' man.

I said price guide but it was more of a base rate with 'Fees for additional services negotiated prior to or at time of serivce." The base rate was so large I never really charged anything more.
258. William | February 14, 2010 at 6:06 am

I generally use the word gay, whether referring to myself, or the political issue in blog type writing. I tend not to refer to gays and lesbians, but not for any specific reason, more because it makes more sense I think given that I have the personal reason to write from my pov, and gay doesn't exclude lesbians.

I'm in the middle of an email correspondence with a politician on this who referred twice to "marriage", using quote marks. In the response, I mentioned that while marriage has always been between a man and a woman, it's also true that for much of Christian history homosexual relations were regarded as inferior at best and criminal at worst. In that context, I think homosexual makes sense, as the word gay in this meaning has 20th century origin. In all other cases, I used gay.

I also avoid LGBT, mostly because it just doesn't come naturally to me. Ordinary people know of their gay friends, relatives or neighbours, and don't think of them as LGBT. And on this issue, it is about gay (or gay and lesbian) rights. Someone who's bi and in a gay relationship and wants to get married benefits just as much from marriage equality. And recognizing gender reassignment is a whole other question.
259. Michelle Evans | February 14, 2010 at 7:25 am

William,

Yes, it is often considered that the word gay also implies lesbian. In fact some people go so far as to use the term gay women rather than the more specific lesbian.

Your comment at the end concerning how "recognizing gender reassignment is a whole other question" really brings to light a huge problem, even within the LGBT community. As I have mentioned before, being transgender is a very difficult thing in our society, probably THE most difficult thing I can imagine anyone having to deal with (and I speak for extensive personal experience on this!).

This is made even more evident by the simple fact that many within the LGB community still do not recognize Trans as being a part of the whole civil rights movement (even though it was transgenders who actually started the whole thing at Stonewall–as many gays and lesbians often would prefer to forget).

Guess we are no worthy of discussion in a lot of cases. The most evident and blatant example of this was in the 2006 ENDA fight where it was deemed okay by the HRC, the largest LGBT advocacy organization on Earth, to delete any protections and rights for transgender people because they felt it was something that no one in polite company even wanted to discuss. Their rationale was that trans can wait for the next time around. Wonder when exactly that was going to be if that ENDA had been passed and signed into law?

During the Prop 8 trial it was often brought up about the powerlessness of the gays and lesbians, thus their need to be protected by the courts. Consider the ramifications if trans are left out of this fight. Do you seriously think that there is enough political power within the trans community to ever get our equal rights if we are not included with the rest of the LGB community?

I work a lot with PFLAG and their speaker's bureau. At one of our meetings I had an interesting discussion with a gay man. His thoughts about transgender are that things such as reparative therapy is a viable option for us. Can you imagine the outrage from a gay or lesbian if someone were to say the same thing about them? But it is okay to say this about trans because we are not really people anyway.

I would hope that our attitude here, and throughout the LGBT community is that we are striving for equal rights for every single person, no matter who they are. To throw one group under the bus or to leave them out of the conversation is exactly the same thing that the pro-Prop 8 people are saying about all of us, that we are not worthy as a group of being considered as a full and complete human being.
260. Michelle Evans | February 14, 2010 at 7:35 am

I have to follow up with a specific example of what I am talking about. In the state of Texas there are, of course, laws that do not allow gays or lesbians to marry someone of the same gender. There are however no laws prohibiting them, if they so choose, to marry a person of the opposite gender. Obviously this is a bad situation for the lesbians and gays, however, how many Gs & Ls have done exactly that in their lives, for whatever reason it may be?

Now consider a transgender person in Texas. Say you are a physical male who is actually a trans female. This might entail going to a therapist to discover exactly what's going on, etc. Once that medical decision has been made that the person is, in fact, trans, civil rights are immediately taken away from that individual.

A major case in point relevant to our discussion is that now the trans person is prevented–by-law–from marrying ANYONE of EITHER sex! They want to make sure that in a case such as mine where I am actually a lesbian, that I would not be able to marry another woman. Even though in Texas I would–again, by law–be prevented from ever changing my gender marker on any official documents, so that according to them I was still male, even after full gender reassignment surgery and living the rest of my life as female, I would still be unable to marry a woman or a man!

So, to reiterate, full equality for everyone is a must! No one can be left behind, including those who are transgender who you do not understand. And, like with marriage equality, it must be at a Federal level, so that the garbage in places like Texas (one of the last holdouts with sodomy laws, too) must be brought into the 21st Century.

stepping down from my soapbox now…
261. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 8:13 am

I have brought this point up before but it is worth repeating…

Why does the government need to legislate gender in the first place?

Genetic testing is not mandatory and was NEVER a traditional activity!!!!!

Politicians do not decide gender and an obstetrician cannot have enough info to make a qualified binding decision at the time of birth!!

Why does my license need to have a M or F on it? What legal reason is there to compel law abiding citizens to have any gender at all!!!

I really find the issue very intrusive and irrelevant. It's only purpose seems to be to allow insurance discrimination, segregate prisoners and soldiers (both of which already have private medical professionals to determine the issue), enforce ridiculous "marriage" laws and force trans and intersexed people into terribly difficult legal situations.

If anyone has a legitimate reason for mandatory gender IDfication fill me in!
262. fiona64 | February 14, 2010 at 9:52 am

She's a miserable, hate-filled *loser,* David. Period, the end. Yes, it's possible that she is not the person in the profile (although that woman lives in Oregon and has credentials similar to what Kay Moore claims here). Regardless, the Kay Moore here is pathetic, sad and in need of psychiatric help. Her only purpose here is to hurt people. She claims to be Christian, but I wonder how that can possibly be when her only reason for existence is to deny other people the right to love each other. You know, that thing that Rabbi Yeshua ben Joseph commanded his followers to do?

She's worthless, David. She is a spineless POS who hides behind an alleged psudonym for the sole purpose of spewing hate speech to people whom she thinks are "icky."

She's disgusting, and should crawl back under her rock.

In other words, she is not worth any of our time.

Love,
Fiona
263. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 11:45 am

Oh, please, do go on Fiona; it's entertaining reading for when I'm bored.

Incidentally, David, I have neither "martyr complex" nor am I particularly stupid. I know that continuing my mild commentary will continue to evoke puerile babbling from Ronnie, significantly more intelligent and mild-mannered denunciations from folks like you and Felyx, and repeated assurances from Fiona that I'm a loser and pathetic and that I'm unworthy of her time. All of which is highly entertaining considering the evils against which its commentators rail. I have no need to stop so long as I can look back with satisfaction on the mildness of my comments and the rantings they evoke. The greatest joy of the situation is that I don't even need to say particularly controversial things to evoke the same reaction as if I'd come in here drooling hate.
264. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 11:50 am

Quack!!!…….Quack!!!!!……….Quack!!!!!!!!
265. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 12:08 pm

Kvak.

(Why? Who the hell knows why?….just because. :,)
266. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 12:08 pm

Impressive. Very poorly-applied but impressive nonetheless, Felyx. Out of curiosity, do you know where the phrase "Breathe deep, seek peace" comes from?
267. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 12:13 pm

Uno….dos….tres……. Quacktro!!!!!!!
268. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 12:13 pm

ELMER!!!! Don't eat that! That is disgusting! That is not a real duck….it's a kwack! They are toxic and not too bright.

(Hu'hu'hu'hu'huh!)
269. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 12:17 pm

LMAO!!!!…..kwack!….is whack….Bobbee!…Bobbee!!!…get a receipt for the kwack!….Bobbee!…. hehehe….lol…Felyx….<3…Ronnie
270. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 12:23 pm

Kvaksprecht ist leichter zu sprechen als Delphinsprecht.
271. Kay Moore | February 14, 2010 at 3:50 pm

No, Ronnie, it's not Spanish. Good try, though.

Actually, Felyx, the dolphin means of communication is the more difficult because it's real as opposed to invented.
272. Ben | February 14, 2010 at 5:19 pm

I am currently in the process of preparing a presentation for a class I am taking in Epistemology ( of a sort ) as something of a capstone course in my high school education. If anyone here has heard of the International Baccalaureate, I'm taking the Theory of Knowledge class.

Basically, I am identifying what are referred to as « knowledge issues » or areas in a topic which lead to miscommunication and differing interpretations, and then analysing what it is about these things that leads to the issues. For my subject, I chose the debate over gay marriage; the biggest issue was, for a few hours, what term to use ( gay marriage or SSM ) ; reading this post decided me in favour of « gay marriage », partially because it is fairly neutral, and it lacks any reference to sexuality period ( sure, the term « gay » is present, but if that implies a particular sexual relation, then so does « straight ». ) This site has been of a great deal of use to me in preparing the presentation, and I expect it will be exciting to follow in future, as a decision nears.
273. Michelle Evans | February 14, 2010 at 5:33 pm

Ben,

My personal preference, and that of many others I know, is to use the phrase "same gender marriage" rather than SSM or just gay marriage. This eliminates any bias someone might have for the word gay, and also eliminates any mention of sex, since that is simply no one else's business anyway!

Same gender marriage sums it all up pretty well, and is fairly neutral overall when you discuss it with other people.
274. Michelle Evans | February 14, 2010 at 5:44 pm

Felyx,

Actually, in most cases the doctor present at birth can tell pretty readily if a person is male or female. However, there are definitely times when a person is born with ambiguous genitalia (intersex) where that may not always be the case. Also, there is never a way at birth to know if someone might be transgender as that does not appear until age 3 or later as the individual identity begins to emerge.

So I would disagree that it is government that is legislating gender, it is a physical and mental thing that, for most people, is pretty straight forward. Even though there is a large number of trans people in our population, overall, it is still a rather small number compared to the total population numbers.

Being trans myself, I can first of all say that there are many in our community who will disagree with what I say, but hey, we're all friends here. With that in mind I want to say that for me having a gender marker showing myself as female is a very important aspect of my life. I lived for a long time with an improper gender marker and after all I have gone through to finally get my body and mind into harmony, the last thing I want to have happen is to be sharing a restroom with a male, or be recognized in any other way except as a female. I worked long and hard to accomplish what I did. I lived a horrible life up till that point and I want to absolutely embrace the fact that I am completely and totally female!

Unisex doesn't work for me at all. And for those around in the 70s when they really tried to do that, it didn't work for the population at large either. It was a social experiment that failed pretty miserably. I am female. I like being female. I don't want to be lumped together with everyone else. I revel in being female, and don't want to lose what I worked so hard to achieve.
275. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 7:20 pm

Michelle,
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Your first paragraph is comfirming what I said about, "ostetrician[s] cannot have enough info to make a qualified binding decision at the time of birth!!" Just because one guesses right means that it is fair for the less than one percent that got misclassified.

As for government not legislating gender, what do you think the DOMA laws are? Healthcare?! No, they specifically legislate which gender can marry which gender. That IS gender legislation. Without the man/woman in the sentence there would be no Act on which to legislate. The male/female part of that is enforced by the letter on your birth ceritificate and you DL or passport. That is due to legislation on gender for each citizen.

Unisex, I am not sure why you mentioned it, no one is advocating that. I would advocate that each individual be able to self-determine gender at a time when they are ready and ammend as necessary. I think gender is something to be decided by the individual as no one else is qualified to make that decision for anyone else. Absolutely no harm comes to society from allowing a child or adult to tell society who they are!

Maybe you got hung up on the phrase, "What legal reason is there to compel law abiding citizens to have any gender at all!!!" I may have been unclear as I was refering to the legal identification of gender. Maybe everyone should be legally neutral until they are ready and capable to self identify. I think it would spare the super-minority a huge burden to simply have a single form with a request of gender change regardless of medical reason and the vast majority who agree with their birth doctors guess would never be bothered at all.

Please reread the post carefully, I think you will see it is far more salient than you at first may have expected.

With love, and certainly concern,

Felyx
276. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 7:35 pm

Late at night, I will ammend….

'Just because one guesses right means that it is fair for the less than one percent that got misclassified. '

Is better read…

'Just because one guesses right nearly 99% of the time doesn't means that it is fair for the less than one percent that got misclassified. '

I would add, I think a major part of the marriage debates stems from something deeper than religious feeling. I think it is deeply disturbing for some to be forced to acknowledge more than just male or female. I hope one day there will be a much broader understanding about sex-linked traits across the human gender spectrum.

I also hope it becomes obvious that the government needs not to interfere with highly personal gender issues. I see no reason why a simple formulary process cannot be allowed for any person to self identify gender without excessive medical and legal costs. Who would do it if they didn't really believe it was necessary! Fill out a form, petition a judge…move on.
277. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 10:40 pm

So Felyx not only is "it" a complete imbecile but "it" has no sense of humor and knows notha about sarcasm and is moore sadomasochistic then a flock of ducks flying into the engines of a jet..Quaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
278. Shlee | February 14, 2010 at 11:04 pm

Ben,

Good luck with Theory of Knowledge! I went to IB school (though I wasn't an IB student myself) and I have heard some scary things about IB. Though maybe that was just my school. Anyways, good luck with your presentation!

<3 Shlee
279. Felyx | February 14, 2010 at 11:29 pm

LOL!! Thank you K, you just made my morning.

For those of you lost in Translation, K has just revealed that dolphin communication, as referenced by the Sci-Fi show Dinotopia, "is the more difficult because it’s real as opposed to invented" like the kwaking coming from her own mouth.

I believe this was my point K….only took two 'real' languages and several permutations of kwak to get that across.

BTW, the chastisement towards Ronnie is unfitting and not relevent, he made his comment before mine.

*Ronnie, four, to the quacano-hablante, is spelled quactro. There is no k in quactro. For example, in spanish there is also no 'K' in intelligencia, compasion or dignitad.
280. Ronnie | February 14, 2010 at 11:40 pm

I stand corrected….thank you Felyx….<3…Ronnie
281. Felyx | February 15, 2010 at 12:13 am

Ronnie, Luv ya Bro! <3 Fe
282. Ronnie | February 15, 2010 at 12:17 am

Luv ya too Bro!….<3…Ronnie
283. Ben | February 15, 2010 at 2:30 am

Thanks, Shlee.

IB tends to have this mystique of being horridly difficult … while it is hard, I've never thought it was too much. Admittedly, when I'm writing two papers and prepping a presentation at the same time in my last semester of high school, I question my own sanity … but if I weren't in this I would be bored. I'm betting the presentation will go well—and it's one of the last big projects before graduation! (So close, and yet so far … )
284. Ben | February 15, 2010 at 2:35 am

Michelle –

Part of the reason I'm using gay is because, at least in the TOK class I'm in, it's pretty neutral. I'm going to an exceptionally liberal school, where I'm out of the closet and no one cares ( well, the closet became something of a large office [ with gauze panels around it, where people would wander in and chat with me ] a few months ago ) and also, it's a matter of time consumption. I'm trying to keep the text concise and make it easier ( and quicker ) to say since I have only about 12 minutes for my whole presenation. I can understand using a neutral name, but in the case of this particular class, gay is as neutral as any word.
285. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 8:05 am

Ben, please keep us posted on how your presentation goes. Are you part of the FB group? If not, please sign up for it. That way, if this ste is no longer available, you can update us all through that. In fact, I wish there wee some way we could see a video of your presentation. That would just be so cool. And best wishes for now and for your future. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
286. Kay Moore | February 15, 2010 at 10:39 am

Somehow, the point that "Kwackage" is nonsense invented by yourself and others, instead of representing what was actually said, seems to have gotten lost. Curious…
287. Ronnie | February 15, 2010 at 10:45 am

Curious said the QUACK!!!!!….quack…quack…… quack……..quackety quack quack!!!!!!…<3…Ronnie
288. Ben | February 15, 2010 at 12:01 pm

Richard –

What is the name of the facebook group ? ( I'm probably not in it. ) Our teacher had mentioned videotaping, I'll see if that's happening. Otherwise, there will probably at least be an audio recording, which I could probably find a way to post. I can at least post the PDF of the presentation I'll be displaying. Good luck in the future.
289. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 12:15 pm

Ben, the facebook group is called the Prop 8 Trial Trackers. Look forward to having you there. And with young people like you, I feel we ALL have a very bright future ahead of us. I look forward to seing your presentation, whether video or PDF, and if audio is available, I will listen to it. I take it you are going to college? What will your major be?
290. Lesbians Love Boies | February 15, 2010 at 12:18 pm

I joined today the prop 8 trial tracker fb today, and the "bet we can find 1,000,000 People who Support Same Sex Marriage".

Nice to know they are almost to 2,000,000
291. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 12:27 pm

LLB, does this mean that I can now hear from you in two realms instead of just one? Oh, this is just great. I will go to FB in a few, after I catch up here, and look for you in the group. That will make it even easier fr you to see our wedding pictures later this year wen we go to CT! This is Absolutely Fabulous!
292. Lesbians Love Boies | February 15, 2010 at 12:29 pm

I am so new to facebook, but how will you even know who is me…lol
293. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 12:45 pm

Go to the FB group and look for te discussion thread about the eed for Equality Teams in every state. click on the photo beside the first comment in that thread and friend me. Once I get the email from FB, I will confirm. I really want to stay in touch with all of this wonderful family I have found here on this site. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
294. Lesbians Love Boies | February 15, 2010 at 12:49 pm

I hope you were the right person. : )
295. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 1:03 pm

Yes, it is me! Get a load of the suit, right? LOL that is my Stanley Dealer drag!
296. Ben | February 15, 2010 at 1:42 pm

Richard –
Facebook is currently made of fail, and is refusing to even consider searching for « Prop 8 Trial Trackers ». It tells me such a thing could not possibly exist, I must have misspelled it. Actually, now, the search bar just gives me a page devoid of information. If you could somehow link me to the page, that would be most helpful.
297. Richard Walter (soon | February 15, 2010 at 1:50 pm

Ben, go to your friends tab on your profile page and friend me. Once I confirm ou as a friend, I can suggest the group or you from there and you should be able to join that way. I live in Hope Mills, NC, and the name you see here is the same. In my profile picture, I am in a suit.
298. Ben | February 15, 2010 at 2:16 pm

Richard-

I finally succeeded at finding both the group and you. Don't mind the profile pic, it's a leftover of doppelgänger week. I'll be sure to keep up with the group as the case continues.
299. William | February 17, 2010 at 3:14 am

I think this comes down to a difference between the organizational aspect of campaigning, and words used in specific contexts. Of course HRC and equivalent organizations should insist on fair treatment for transgendered people and transsexuals. But if I'm asking someone about marriage rights, I think it makes more sense to ask someone "Do you think gay couples should be allowed to marry?" rather than "Do you think LGBT people should be allowed to marry?" And if I'm writing about my own experience, it can only be described as a gay, rather than LGBT.
300. mikeplainfield | February 17, 2010 at 4:36 am

I learned of this when that article came out about Tyson Gay (the athlete). There was an article on a religious website that called him Tyson Homosexual. They had a computer automatically change all instances of the word "gay" to "homosexual." It was pretty funny, and they knew why they were doing it… but it was the first time I had really thought about it, and it made sense.
301. Happy | February 17, 2010 at 4:37 am

"They don't have the right to redefine marriage for all of us…"

But, why do THEY have the right to define marriage for US?!

Who has the right to define marriage? NOM? Judge Walker? The 9th Circuit? The Supreme Court? NATO? The Unitarian Universalist Church? The Jews? The Christians? The Muslims? The Buddhists?

I suppose marriage needs a definition, but I honestly have a problem with anyone defining it once and for all – for all groups, for all time. God forbid the world evolves and some other round peg doesn't fit into that square hole definition…
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