Prop 8 Harms Children, While Marriage Benefits Them

February 9, 2010

By guest poster Jasmine Beach-Ferrara
Director, The Progressive Project

Last Wednesday, The Progressive Project (TPP) and COLAGE filed an amicus curiae brief in support of the plaintiffs in Perry v. Schwarzenegger. Our brief focuses on the harm that occurs to children of same-sex couples when marriage equality is banned.

Ideally, parents wish to protect their children from violence and prejudice and will look to their extended communities, including schools, places of worship, and government, for such protections. The California constitution, however, perpetuates stigma and discrimination against children of gay men and lesbians and their families.

Lesbian and gay couples create families and lead their lives with joy, love and support despite discriminatory marriage laws and the stigma and prejudice they experience. Such resilience is a survival strategy, but it is not an adequate solution to prejudicial treatment.

Beyond the notion that children are not harmed by being raised by gay or lesbian parents, our brief argues that they are in fact harmed by discriminatory laws. Prop 8 and similar marriage bans in other states cause financial, legal, and psychosocial harm to children, a conclusion that is supported by medical research, social science research, the experiences of children whose families are headed by same-sex couples, and the teachings of faith traditions that recognize the right of same-sex couples to marry and honor the sanctity of the families they form.

Key findings include:

The campaign to pass Prop 8 subjected the families of same-sex couples to political attacks that questioned the legitimacy of their family bonds. Heightened stigmatization occurs during campaigns to pass measures like Prop 8, and lesbian and gay people experience an increased level of psychological distress when a marriage ban has recently passed in their state. Researchers have found that lesbian and gay people respond to campaigns to restrict civil rights with feelings of shock, fear, anger, sadness, shame and negative feelings about themselves. While research has not been completed on the subject, advocates report that the children of same-sex couples have similar responses, particularly during earlier developmental stages. During and after the campaign to pass Prop 8, the young children of same-sex couples consistently reported fears that their families would be ‘torn apart’ and that their parents would be forced to separate. Children have asked their same-sex parents: ‘are they going to take me away from you?

Marriage has incontrovertibly been proven to have beneficial effects on family stability. Same-sex families demonstrate less financial stability, a trend that is traced to factors such as unequal treatment in the workplace and denial of the right to marry. Studies show that poverty rates for children of same-sex couples are twice as high as poverty rates for children of married couples . . . There is good reason to think that access to the institution of marriage will enable the families of same-sex couples to achieve greater financial stability, which is in the best interest of children.

And here is the full brief:

ZD Scribd iPaper

Filed under: Statements

Part the Second: This Isn’t About YouTube The Defense Experts That Were “Scared”

1747177 Comments2010-02-10+01%3A40%3A35couragecampaign Leave a Comment

1. Richard W. Fitch | February 9, 2010 at 10:50 am

The more that the general public can be educated on the facts that same-sex couples and families are not that different from M-F marriages, the better. Providing a stable environment for SSM/families can in no way undermine the stability of heterosexual marriage.
2. Lesbians Love Boies | February 9, 2010 at 10:53 am

I million GLBT families raising 2 million children from the 2000 census. I wonder how many more there are today that will benefit from same-sex marriage.
3. Felyx | February 9, 2010 at 11:05 am

One million gays raising two million children? Before you know it gays and their families will rule the world and there will be no religious heterosexuals left… they will all die out!

Surely it is ArmaGAYdon!!!
4. David Kimble | February 9, 2010 at 11:09 am

Woohoo! This is a great one for our side – I think Boies and all have done an excellent job in this case! I am so happy they are on our side!
5. Richard Walter (soon | February 9, 2010 at 11:19 am

Thank you for poating this, and thank you to the groups who filed this particular amicus brief for the plaintiffs. This reads like a condensed version of all the studies done on this, with a comprehensive listing of those studies at the end so that anyone with half a brain can find those studies and if necessary, ask for help understanding the medicalese or other profession-related language. Baruch HaShem!
6. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 11:27 am

I'll repost this here because I didn't realize this new thread started ……..lol

Could this be what the world would be like if the roles were reversed….I say no…..but the parallels in the world that the prop ha8ters think we live in and the real world are eerily similar…don't you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv1mxI1-lcU
7. David Kimble | February 9, 2010 at 11:38 am

Thank you, Ronnie, that was so precious!
Love,
David
8. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 11:40 am

I thought you would like it…lol
9. Bolt | February 9, 2010 at 11:43 am

Keep the deliberate facts coming! The bigots wholly ignore these essential details. The best they can do is reach for their shallow sound bites. Hit them like a truck with deliberate facts!
10. Richard W. Fitch | February 9, 2010 at 11:46 am

Yeah, a bit of an exaggeration; but as satire – right-on!
11. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 12:02 pm

Oh and I don't know if you guys noticed a little detail about my personality…that video I posted about Miss California…well that's not me in the video…but I do talk like him and if you haven't noticed my humor and sarcasm is spot on identical to his…just so you can get a clearer picture and dialogue when I make those comments…lol

<3…Ronnie Mc
12. David Kimble | February 9, 2010 at 12:04 pm

Actually, no, Richard. I am almost done writing a book about a planet, called Parador. It falls under the classification of Gay SCI-FI. On my world, which populated by a human-like race there is only one sex – MEN! To make a long story short, it the future and life on Earth is dying, a small group of travelers sets-off across the galaxy to a planet in the Orion Nebula, where we have found a possibly habitable world. The Captain of this group is very special, yet he doesn't realize it, until arriving on the planet.
Love,
David
13. David Kimble | February 9, 2010 at 12:05 pm

Thank you…I loved the video, btw.
14. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 12:09 pm

No problem….I'm going to read what you sent me of your book next weekend btw….My mother B-day is 2morro and shes off of work this week so I'm spending time with her….but I can't wait to start reading it.
15. Felyx | February 9, 2010 at 12:39 pm

Isn't there already a movie out about this? Where the guy has a car wreck, goes back in time to an alternate universe where everyone is gay.

It was a pretty well done movie but the premise was awesome!
16. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 12:44 pm

Yeah there is a movie a little like that but David K/s is more sci-fi and that movie Is more comedy..I can't remember the name though……. I saw it "HERE!"
17. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 12:44 pm

I mean on saw it on "HERE!"
18. Lesbians Love Boies | February 9, 2010 at 12:55 pm

Here is a heterosexual woman's account of not being in favor of same sex marriage, through the process of thinking it through…and concluding, yes, you got it…equality for GLBT. It's loooong and not a humorous video, but she hits on some great analogies. I hope those against same sex marriage do take the time to watch it.

[youtube
19. jimig | February 9, 2010 at 1:10 pm

I am the child of a LGBT family, my parents have been together for 40 years, I am the new generation of children who have found a vioce through this site. I could tell you houndreds of stories of predujdice and hate I have experience, yet through it all my ss parents have raised me with love and respect for all. I am not gay nor have I ever been but I am proud of my parents who are and the life they lead. This gives me hope it gives me a vioce and a place to feel supported for the first time, Please understand I was a child of a SS relationship longer than many of you have been in a ss relationship and I have seen so much and to read that these groups are supporting positive parenting and the facts gives me hope. Thank God my parents were so loving the world around them didn't make it easy.

Please wish your mother a happy birthday from me!
Love,
David

THANK YOU, for sharing your experiences with us jimig – I am so proud of all of us, who have shared their stories with us! Love, David

definitely

Great video, thank you

Thanks, LLB! This is exactly what happens. People begin to think for themselves, and they begin to see that we deserve the cake, the frosting, and all the celebration and recognition of our love and commitment that they have. This is why the Prop h8ers did not want the trial on YouTube, this is why they don't allow comments on their site, this is why they did not have live blogs, his is why they don't have links where anyone can access the trial transcripts and all the other legal filings related to this. Theyare afraid that the people they have conned will get a backbone, as the woman in this video says, and that they will begin to think for themselves and to see the truth.

I love the analogy of cake with no frosting. I think that's one I might have to hold on to for future use.

Thanks for sharing! :0)

<3Shlee

Ronnie, also tell your mom happy birthday from me and from my husband the rabbi! Also tell her we sai she deserves to spoil herself more!

I certainly will….we might go see West Side Story sometime this week in NYC…I've never seen it live on stage….so it should be good.

Yes, I just finished watching the video – it is great! Thank you for sharing it with us. She does indeed think it through logically! Too bad that everyone doesn't have her reasoning skills.
Love,
David

Enjoy West Side Story, I have only the film version, but I still think it is a great story. Please tell your Mom, happy birthday from me, too!

"I like to be in America….Everything free in America…For a small fee in America………You forget I'm in America……..Ooooooo"…….hahahah…I will

P.S. I am sooooo coming up with an LGBT version of that song…lol

Thank you The Progressive Project (TPP) and COLAGE.

This is only the second "Amicus" I have ever read (@ 50+ years old!). Awesome and AmazIng!

It's incredible that this legal process has finally given us the opportunity to expose our realities…We have lived it and it has been in our hearts all our lives. In our short time on this earth, we have been deprived of so much, yet, in my short life, I may finally be able to see light at the end of a long tunnel. This is 'history' in my time and our time.

I LOVE the woman in that video! Thank you for sharing that, LLB! I wish my parents would watch that.

"Deliverance" or Why Universal Marriage Is So Important To Me
By Felyx

This is an odd subject to be sure but it seems strangely relevant to the current blog. So I think I will share….

On a previous thread I posted a comment that made an implication that a particular 'troll' was being referenced as a pig. The immediate 'play on words' was to show support for a fellow communal message poster that I too saw the 'male chauvanism' of the offending troll.

However, there was clearly a second message.

Instead of making attacks or expressing hurt, I took a more aggressive stance. I decided to tap into the fears of the individual and used them to kow him into a more submissive position. It was effective. I knew that it had a chance to work because I had seen it done before. Once, when I was four.

As a child there were precious few opportunities for any child who did not conform to the majority identity of gender or sexuality to find positive role models. For me there were none. What I got was "Deliverance".

I have had conversations with peers who would talk about commercials or movies that would later shape their sexual expression. They had so many to choose from and they were graphic intense and highly erotic…and those were just the commercials. I had "Deliverance".

I had the vision of normal men, like my father or my teachers, being dragged out into the woods by disturbingly unfamiliar sub-human ignorents under threat of harm and…well, used. I had a vision…of "Deliverance".

At that time I was not sure why it was so important to me…but it was. It was very important. I was that, somehow. I was dressed differently, I spoke differently, I looked differently and I could never play the banjo but somehow I was what that was being…that scene on the TV…it was somehow me. And for years that was my concept of how I was supposed to do it. I was supposed to be forced, to be used. So it only seemed reasonable that my mother force me to do that thing. She would take me to the babysitter who would pay her. It seemed right because that was how I had seen it done. Once, as a child.

Of course there were times at school when that thing that I knew that I was would happen. It was never violent so much as I had to do it because that was how it was done. And that is how it had been done for so many years of my life. The money I made from it and the skills I developed all stemmed in one way or another from my concept of what someone like me was supposed to be used. Now, lest anyone think I am whining I am not. I am not sure how many who read this could match my self achieved financial and educational status especially considering my age. However, none of it has ever delivered me from "Deliverance."

Let them, those that use fear and force, those that fiercely protect marriage from those who get married, those that are up the creek now, let them call upon their god and pray. Let them lament and squeal. Let them face the BIG BAD WOLF headon…… or let them even….. cry for "Deliverance". It is surely due them.

As for me, Universal Civil Marriage Rights between a man and a man are fine. It's not the Tux. It's not the cake. I could care less about flowers and the vows to me are meaningless. Whether I sign with my right hand or left, whether the paper is in Spanish or French it is all worthless. No friends, no family, not even a partner is necessary.

All I want is to be in my freedom…..from "Deliverance".

But until then I will stand up to the trolls….yeah you, come here to my site and tell my of your woes. Tell me of your fears. Bend over and expound upon your philosophy sqealing as I skewer your incompetence, your ignorance and your corrupted pride. Do worry, I have no intention of making it easy for you…all I want is to trim the fat and find the truth. Then you will know what it was, what it is, "Deliverance".

IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW!!!

Antigay N.Y. State Senator Expelled

The New York state senate voted to expel Hiram Monserrate on Tuesday night, citing his misdemeanor conviction in the assault on his girlfriend. The Queens lawmaker was one of eight Democrats who voted against the marriage equality bill that failed in December.

Senators voted 53 to 8, with one abstention, to remove Monserrate effective immediately after agonizing discussion, according to the New York Daily News.

“The dramatic vote came after hours of impassioned closed-door debate – the only question seemed to be just when Monserrate would be expelled,” reports the Daily News.

Monserrate is the first state lawmaker to be expelled in nearly a century.

No man was ever more rightly hanged, as was said of John Brown a century and a half ago. Better yet, some of y'all can find comfort in the fact that at least one of your opponents is a miserable excuse for a man although the fact that he is anti-SSM doesn't seem to have much to do with his expulsion.

36. Ed-M | February 9, 2010 at 3:52 pm

In fact, Richard, it does the exact opposite. Recognition of SSM further stabilizes heterosexual marriage by incentivizing (do I have it right?) members of each OSM to work on and improve their own marriage.

They can't let "teh gays" show them up, now can they?
37. Ed-M | February 9, 2010 at 4:17 pm

Thank you for sharing, jimig. The world wasn't as accepting of gay parents raising kids back when your parents decided they were going to raise a kid (kids) and have a family. In some states, the Dept. of Child Services even swooped down and took the kids away! Thank God / the Universe that gay and lesbian parents are accepted more these days — even though the forces of the "right" are trying to roll that back as well.
38. Ed-M | February 9, 2010 at 4:18 pm

Wonderful video! Thanks!
39. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 5:09 pm

dieter…..they're all going down yeah?…………hahaha like the PIGSKM they are!…….. The so called "status quo" is about to become the "status no moer" because those boglins attack and harass like the sheet wranglers they are at night btw. 12am and 3am eastern time…F-ing hooded bigot cowards!
40. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 5:28 pm

And further more dieter…those in the real world know and I for one, who is apart of all the NYC hub-bub, know that the vote on Marriage Equality was the last snap of the noose of expulsion. Since I was actually there I can tell you that that was the smoking gun. Not to mention all the other hypocritical BS that the bigots and he are soooo good at….It's ok for him to beat his girlfriend but marriage equality is wrong…right because its ok as long as it is btw. a man and a woman….bigot wife beater hypoctire, bible cherry picking trash bag of moore triple k, swatzy monkey dung…..He brought it on himself…..poor baby…..wahhh…ok I'm done with that one….so how about them Saints?
41. fiona64 | February 9, 2010 at 11:11 pm

Happy birthday to your mom, Ronnie.

XOXO,
Fiona
42. fiona64 | February 9, 2010 at 11:13 pm

Ronnie, back in the day I played Rosalia. The play is a bit different from the film … wonderful either way. This revival is getting rave reviews all over the place. Have a wonderful time.

Love,
Fiona
43. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 11:22 pm

My Mother said thank you.
44. Ronnie | February 9, 2010 at 11:59 pm

"Just thinking about same sex marriage is infringing on my rights….honest to goodness…I have seen those statuses and all I have to say to people that think that way is…from one chicken to another…..GET A BACKBONE….I mean that is snively….that is ridiculous…I couldn't even believe when i saw a status like that…That's just crazy………..I mean it's just stupid"

Hahahaha….I love this chick….now if only the other h8ters could stop the sheep calls in their ears they could think it through as well……thank you LLB

<3…..Ronnie Mc
45. george | February 10, 2010 at 12:03 am

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, this whole case was started by the gays whining about the fact that only a man and a woman can make a baby and that the state holds that relationship in high esteem relative to non-procreating relationships. “I can’t procreate, bwaaaaaa!” I can’t understand why all you queers can’t understand such a simple fact.

On another note, I guess I’ll go ahead and put it out there….since you are all so into “gay” stuff, can anyone recommend a good sexual compulsives anonymous type of group for STRAIGHT men? Of course I’m as straight as the day is long, but I’ve had a few close calls lately of my wife almost catching me on cockwhore.com. I’ve nearly rubbed myself raw investigating what you homos like to do…..I need some help because it seems to be taking up all of my time (when I’m not posting here). I’ve collected at least 20,000 pics of, well you know….all that hot meat….I can’t stop! Gaytube.com is also a favorite…I mean a source for observation. I was there almost all night down in the cellar (that’s why I haven’t been able to post for a while). Any suggestions? I’m afraid my wife is going to leave me because we haven’t had sex for at least a year now….but of course I’m STRAIGHT!
46. rpx | February 10, 2010 at 12:12 am

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
47. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:13 am

UMMMM….I am gay and I CAN procreate….LGBT people can procreate…this whole case started by the bigots whining about their blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Definition of pro-cre-ate:
verb [ intrans. ]
(of people or animals) produce young; reproduce

Thank you in-vitro fertilization!
48. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 12:16 am

Thank you, Felix – WOW!
49. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:17 am

A Curious Guy….Envies….Our….Righteous….Gay…..Energy!
50. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 12:22 am

LOL
ROFLMAO
Thanks,
Ronnie!
Love,David
51. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:26 am

When this video was created in 2007 it was just a dream and now we have achieved one of our Goals for LGBT Equality Rights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOqlrHgrSgc&fe…
52. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 12:30 am

Yes, I agree, Ronnie. By the way, did you hear what Sarah Palin said about the bill? It's like what planet does she live on?
53. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:34 am

No what did she say?…but I don't doubt that she lives on a diff. planet since she is ok with her daughter being a ho but not ok with Marriage Equality…..Hypocrite…anyway…what did she say?
54. Rightthingtodo TX | February 10, 2010 at 12:35 am

to yet again correct jorge…i know fiona64's keys are getting worn out from having to correct the ignorant jorge…it was started because opposite gender couples get to reap the economic benefits of having their relationship recoginzed by the government…i don't recall any same gender couples crying about procreation…quotes anywhere? no of course not…marriage equality has been and always will be about the government recognizing a contract between two individuals…recognizing it on a real economic level…and not the ability to procreate…just an aside why would jorge want procreation among opposite gender couples at all…experience shows us that some significant percentage of opposite gender offspring will want to marry a person of the same gender…so where does that put him in 20 years?

i’m not sure why i (and i can presume jorge although self loathing is weird animal so i can’t be sure) get to reap the economic benefit of having my relationship recognized simply because i’m attracted to the opposite gender

btw, last i checked, both same gender male and same gender female couples can procreate providing 1/2 the genetic material to make a human
55. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:45 am

LMAO!
56. Lesbians Love Boies | February 10, 2010 at 1:03 am

This must be the song at my wedding.

[youtube
57. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 1:04 am

58. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 1:05 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CohwuiyhyWA&fe…
Sorry, that last one didn't work. Here is her interview with Charlie Gibson.
Love,
David
59. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 1:10 am

BS…."I have a gay friend"…..where have heard that before….lol
60. Lesbians Love Boies | February 10, 2010 at 1:15 am

[youtube
61. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 1:17 am

Yeah, it does sound vaguely familiar, doesn't it? LOL I found a video during the VP debates and apparently neither, Obama/Biden nor McCain/Palin support same sex marriage. Can we get a recall vote? LOL

LLB……hahahaha
David K. Obama/Biden support the state by state but also support the checks and balances…so either way we win.

Yeah, I agree! Thanks, Ronnie! Thanks LLB, great video. By the way, how do I get videos to appear here?
Love,
David

On the youtube page, on the right is Embed code, copy that code and paste it here

I copy and paste the link from the address bar and then I press enter…usually works if its from youtube

Thanx, BTW, everyone is correct, it will only allow one post of a video or a link to the video.

The other day, someone made a comment about getting an error – I am having the same problem. When I try to copy and paste an "embeded link from youtube.com to here, I get an error message, that says, "You have already made that comment." What am I doing wrong?

Try adding some other words to it, I wonder if it could mean someone has already posted that video.

Not that I am aware of, but thanx.
Love, David

70. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:34 am

See adoption is wanted but not required, reproduction though sexual activity is prominent but not required: in other words DEBUNKED….hows that crow?…mmmmm!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1AohZEank4
71. george | February 10, 2010 at 2:35 am

Need I say that this is my first post today? Nice try by the imposter.

As to this thread, it's more irrelevant faux research that has absolutely nothing to do with the constitutionality-as-a- matter-of-law issue on which the outcome of this case is based.

Psychobabble research is practically nonsense because it is so susceptible to bias and because it is virtually impossible to establish the causative links that are so important in all research.

Ask a welfare mother whether she ever has enough money, and guess what the answer will be. Ask a gay person whether they have ever been discriminated against and guess what will the answer be. Ask a gay researcher to do research on the percentage of homosexuals in the country and guess what the answer will be (Hint: 10%).

I just learned today that the California Supreme Court has already ruled on the constitutionality of Prop 8. Couldn't even get a bunch of liberal judges in your own state to support your position, so you go forum shopping. Pathetic and worthy of a major slap down by the US Supreme Court.
72. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 2:41 am

Thanx, Ronnie – what a great video!
73. george | February 10, 2010 at 2:44 am

This is so screwed up on so many levels. Yet another case in which the legislatures are going to have to step in and stop this travesty in which babies are treated as products, intentionally bred to be taken from their mothers to satisfy the selfish interests of a couple who opted for a relationship that is inherently unable to produce offspring.

It's a sickening social experiment. Go get a dog, because that's essentially how you're treating children in these scenarios; like a dog.
74. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:45 am

Proof?
75. george | February 10, 2010 at 2:46 am

Is this a euphemism for gay sex and you're wondering why you're not getting pregnant? If so, I got an answer for you: marry a woman.
76. george | February 10, 2010 at 2:47 am

None needed. Burden is on you.
77. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:50 am

Supply Proof?

Most Gay mens surrogacies are done with one of the mens sperm and a anonymous egg donor and the surrogate does it voluntarily sometimes for money, sometimes for friendship, sometimes for family…..nice try though.
78. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 2:53 am

uh…george, I just went and read about the "California Supreme Court Case" you referenced and found it interesting the California Supreme Court issued their finding on different grounds than this case has been tried upon.
79. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:53 am

No burned here…Curious Guy Envying Our Righteous Gay Energy….because you don't have any proof…just false accusations, propaganda, speculation, bigoted ignorant opinion, and hearsay……nice try though
80. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 2:54 am

George, how old are you?
81. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:54 am

correction no burden here….moegoe
82. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 2:55 am

Adoption is adoption, George. Babies are "taken" from their mothers and raised by other people. If you've got a problem with same-sex couples adopting, you better DAMN WELL be against opposite-sex couples doing the same thing.
83. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 2:56 am

Also of interest – Federal Court rulings trump State Court rulings.
Love,
David
84. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 2:58 am

You are closer and closer to proving yourself of no worth to humanity, whatsoever, George.
85. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:59 am

Would that be a 75yo menopausal woman, a 16yo woman, a infertile woman, a woman who use to be a man and is legally a woman?

And just because someone marries a woman doesn't mean he will not have sex with a man…and vice versa for lesbians….nice try though
86. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 2:59 am

OMG! OH, NOES!!!!!!!!!
87. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 3:02 am

Proof is the burden of the person making the assertion, not the person questioning it. Nice try.
88. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:03 am

Thanks, I needed the laugh! The State Court ruling only addressed the constitutionality "under the State Constitution" that yes, Prop8 is legal. Our case focussed on a totally different aspect…DISCRIMINATION.
Love,
David
89. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 3:04 am

Hey David K…now the quintessential bigot/trolling begins with, "that wasn't me" and "I didn't say/post that"
90. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:07 am

I did not just write that!
91. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:08 am

Correct. I did.
92. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 3:08 am

How?….Proof?
93. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:09 am

Who did?
94. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:09 am

Correct. I did.

(replied in the wrong place a moment ago)
95. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:09 am

Burden of proof is on you.
96. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:09 am

Who's on first.
97. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:10 am

I don't know.
98. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 3:10 am

Sorry already did…you did not….Proof?
99. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:11 am

Who's on first.

(sorry, responded in the wrong place again)
100. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:11 am

yeah, I noticed that. I think we need to ignore George and his postings here, since they clearly lie under the category of "irrelevant ramblings"
Love,
David
101. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:11 am

I don't knows on second.
102. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:11 am

Not needed.
103. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:12 am

Third base!
104. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:15 am

You did not get to third base with me!
105. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:16 am

Where'd my boyfriend go, anyway?
106. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:17 am

You told me you were single!
107. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:17 am

Sorry.
108. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:19 am

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/06/local/me-…

Here is a link to the California Supreme Court ruling.
109. Mr. HCI | February 10, 2010 at 3:20 am

If I remember correctly, the challenge was to the constitutionality of the way the amendment was undertaken, not to whether or not it was discriminatory.
110. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:21 am

Bitch!
111. Layla | February 10, 2010 at 3:23 am

LOL I love the dog!
112. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:25 am

Mr. HCI, you are correct. The burden is on those who insist that equality is *not* a right to prove the state's compelling interest to deny that right. Hint: "the people have spoken" and "my church says so" do not constitute compelling state interests.

Love,
Fiona
113. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:26 am

Sorry, that link is for a different case that challenged prop8.
114. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:27 am

That is precisely the case. The original case, "In re: marriage cases," was *not* struck down, BTW … which is why the existing marriages are still with us. There is no ex post facto law in this country, after all. Thus, we have two classes of gay and lesbian couples in CA; those who are married, and those cannot be whether they wish to or not. *That* creates the 14th Amendment issue.

Love,
Fiona
115. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:27 am

"That's not mine." — Every tweaker found with crack/marijuana/whatever in his/her pockets on "Cops"

Love,
Fiona
116. rf | February 10, 2010 at 3:29 am

"I just learned today that the California Supreme Court has already ruled on the constitutionality of Prop 8."

George, did you learn that little fact from Rick Santorum today? Perhaps, if you did, you didnt realize he's the dumbest rock in Pennsylvania. Clearly evidenced, not only by a disgraceful career in politics, but also by the total lack of constitutional legal knowledge in his pathetic opinion piece about constitutional issues. Imagine –neither of you knowing that the Supreme Court has established that a constitutional amendment based on animus is unconstitutional. And that proving animus is a valid reason to challenge a constitutional amendment. And the state does not have to take the word of a religious organization on face value especially when they claim tax exempt status. Also interesting that the biggest bigot in the comments section is named George too.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20100210_The…
117. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:31 am

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highpr…

here is a link that addresses the current case.
118. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:39 am

Isn't this an interesting book description for Flawed Foundings by one George Tomezsko? (Emphasis added.)

Flawed Foundings should interest students of government who are curious to learn how healthy republics can be set up and maintained. It should also appeal to conservatives concerned about the decline of manners and morals, and the growth of government, here in the United States. The book offers a unique prescription on how to tackle these problems. Lastly, and most importantly, the work is intended to be wider than that, and posits a possible solution to the political problems of modern man in general. As such, it serves as a nice introduction into the study of political philosophy.

Love,
Fiona
119. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:48 am

Keep shopping forums, keep shopping issues, and hopefully some court will get tired of the gays' bellyaching for a designation of "normal," despite all evidence to the contrary, and we in the heterosexual community will just smile and mentally roll our eyes when some homosexual couple tells us they're "married."

And we'll wonder what kind of freak show society our grandchildren and their grandchildren will live in, but we'll assume it will look like a gay pride parade, filled with children without their mommies and daddies and their screwed up psyches being designated as "normal" by the APA.
120. george | February 10, 2010 at 3:51 am

@DavidKimble: "Also of interest – Federal Court rulings trump State Court rulings."

I'm pretty sure you know better than that , David.
121. Felyx | February 10, 2010 at 3:53 am

I have heard it said that this movie singelhandedly set back gay right 20 years!

Felyx

(I think George played the sow….and that is why he is so upset.)
122. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:54 am

You know what I find fascinating as a straight person, Mr. HCI? How some other straight people seem to think that we are all in agreement with their bigotry and bias. I guess it never crosses their mind that the person at whom we are rolling our eyes might be *them.*

Love,
Fiona
123. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 3:55 am

Despite it being filmed in my home state, believe it or not I have never seen the movie.

(I did, however, learn to play the guitar part for "Dueling Banjoes.")

Love,
Fiona
124. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 3:57 am

The court decision broadly addressed the Proposition process and whether the State constitution can be changed by the proposition process. The court found, that yes, this is acceptable and upheld prop 8 on those grounds alone. The court also agreed that GLBT should have protections, as a "suspect class".
125. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 4:01 am

There is only "Next to Normal"……hehehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkI65xX79zo
126. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 4:07 am

Yeah..so true fiona64, there are just over 95 heterosexuals in my 100+ family ranging from 1-85 and none of them think that way….granted the 1yo girls is too young and my 85yo JW great uncle is too old to care…all he said was marry a good JW man….hehehe
127. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 4:08 am

David, what Pres. Obama actually said amounts to "my beliefs don't matter under the law." Here is a link to something he wrote: http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-02/news/171713…

Quote: In a letter to San Francisco's Alice B. Toklas Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Democratic Club, the presumptive presidential nominee said he opposed "the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution" and similar efforts in other states.

Obama's position on Proposition 8 was announced at a club event Sunday. Last week, Arizona Sen. John McCain, the expected GOP standard-bearer in November, told officials of Protect Marriage, a coalition that gathered 1.1 million signatures for the California measure, that he backs their efforts "to recognize marriage as a unique institution between a man and a woman."

Love,
Fiona
128. Felyx | February 10, 2010 at 4:14 am

Nice vision you paint there…it sounds like you are beginning to come around in your own way realizing it is inevitable and that we are winning on this issue. Before long you won't even be able to utter anti gay bias before someone tells you to your face to Shut up! Your grandkids will have gay friends.
You will tell the teenagers about Gods ways and they "will just smile and mentally roll [their] eyes".

Sorry George….glad you are not being too much a poor sport. (BTW, there are gay caretakers in the nursing homes too….they will be taking care of you and laughing behind your back!!! It's already happening! Happy retirement!)
129. Kay Moore | February 10, 2010 at 4:20 am

Amazing the impact of a movie, isn't it? "The Exorcist" pretty much set the standard for every subsequent portrayal of an exorcism (or at least every satire of one). The most common societal impression of inbred redneck hilbillies seems to come out of "Deliverance" and various movies have given us commonly-heard sayings like "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" (Gone With the Wind). The greatest misfortune, however, is when something that isn't worth the 2 hours of your life required to watch it (which is my impression of "Deliverance") has an impact on the society in general.
130. Felyx | February 10, 2010 at 4:23 am

Ok Fiona…now we are getting spooky….where do you live? I am in NC an hour from Johnson city.
131. fiona64 | February 10, 2010 at 4:24 am

Felyx, I live in CA now, but I grew up in OR. "Deliverance" was filmed along the Rogue River.

Love,
Fiona
132. Kay Moore | February 10, 2010 at 4:24 am

Fortunately, the status quo remains and gains power. Except for some dimwitted crap from the OCA, the status quo was pretty nice in Oregon for LGBT. Then the status quo ended… and now it's explicitly illegal for gays to marry in the state. Hope you enjoy the same success disrupting other status quos, Ronnie.
133. Alan E. | February 10, 2010 at 4:25 am

I encourage you to read them all, including those from the other side. It is a great way to get yourself thinking about the topics at hand and see the various arguments and the weight each one carries.
134. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 4:27 am

Hello, where is everybody?
135. Lesbians Love Boies | February 10, 2010 at 4:29 am

new thread david
136. John | February 10, 2010 at 4:29 am

New thread.
137. ATTENTION! | February 10, 2010 at 4:32 am

Then Kay,

Why don't you stand down, turn inward to your faith, and boycott a system that would allow the promotion of such filth?

Allow yourself to support Universal Marriage and hold sacrimental marriage to your own.

How many children were tortured because you said nothing? Now is not the time to speak, now is the time to repent and let God take care of all his children.

And unless you have something supportive, loving and non-argumentative to say then keep it to yourself…if you want the last word then it is yours, I don't want to argue your beliefs, I just want my freedom from prejudice. Universal Marriage will do that, and that freedom to enjoy one's life is far more valuable than ideology or philosophy.

Felyx
138. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 4:41 am

It seams I was talking to you dieter and a hypocrite is trolling without proof….The status quo that is no moer is non-visual at the press conferences, the polls, the protests, the parades, and so on and so …..60 year ago there was next to no visible LGBT people or supporters and now there is over 1 million openly LGBT people and supporters….hmm…there is not disrupting status quo right dieter when that status quo participates in murder and gay bashing as well as condones it…right dieter? as well as when the status quo has publicly been deemed wanting with out no credibility and the lies have been picked up by the FBI and the IRS….right dieter?
139. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 4:42 am

Eating……hehehe….oh and new thread.
140. Bill | February 10, 2010 at 4:47 am

They ALREADY know this. They KNOW that this hurts US and OUR CHILDREN and FAMILIES.

That is their sole purpose for doing it.

It is important to acknowledge that.

Heterosexuals ALREADY KNOW that they are hurting us.

BECAUSE THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY HURTING US. THIS ISN'T BY ACCIDENT. THIS IS NOT AN, 'OOPS, WE HAD NO IDEA.' It's intentional, deliberate, calculated, and immoral.

Again, intent is important. And it is important to acknowledge that THEIR INTENT IS TO HURT US AND OUR FAMILIES.

They CELEBRATE and REJOICE at doing this.

I agree that better education is needed, but intentional harm to innocent people is the PURPOSE and INTENT of each and every heterosexual that steps into a ballot box and so immorally cast votes AGAINST THE VERY HUMAN BEINGS THAT HETEROSEXUALS ALONE CREATED.

We've gone too easy on them for that for too long. If we have no power to stop their abuse, we can at least call them out on their TRUE intention.

And their intention is simply this:

To hurt innocent people and their families.

(While screaming their heads off about morality.)
141. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 4:57 am

Personally i enjoy movies that are based in reality and thoroughly enjoy quotes such as "“Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn” as well as one that seems fitting to describe the status nil/null of this blog:

"I said NO wire HANGERS!!!!"……hahaha
142. Polydactyl | February 10, 2010 at 5:10 am

I think assigning pure malicious intent to one's opponent is a dangerous trap. They are afraid and misinformed, but I think few proponents of Prop8 are genuinely and whole-heartedly in it just out of some sadistic desire to hurt homosexual families. That's unecessary demonization.

Besides, how likely are you to eventually sympathize and agree with the other side if they are accusing you of opposing them out of mean-spirited sadism? We need open discourse to change hearts and minds, not polarizing accusations.

Then again I'm kind of a hippie.
143. Polydactyl | February 10, 2010 at 5:17 am

So if he marries a woman he'll get pregnant?

That's some inventive biology. I wanna know how THAT works.
144. Bill | February 10, 2010 at 5:19 am

@ Polydactyl

TOTALLY disagree.

This is 2010, not 1932.

This is intentional and done to harm us.

No other reason could or ever HAS existed.

You're too easy.
145. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 7:18 am

Yeah, I’ll second that! DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!
LOL
Love,
David
146. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 7:41 am

“PALIN: Oh, I don’t — I don’t know, but I’m not one to judge and, you know, I’m from a family and from a community with many, many members of many diverse backgrounds and I’m not going to judge someone on whether they believe that homosexuality is a choice or genetic. I’m not going to judge them.”

Sorry, I can’t find the quote, but here’s a real jewel from her! I saw an interview with her the other day. I’ll keep looking to see if I can find the exact quote.
147. Polydactyl | February 10, 2010 at 7:46 am

@ Bill

So, what, you think Mayor Sanders was lying in his testimony regarding why he previously supported civil unions instead of marriage? Doesn't sound like he intentionally wanted to harm homosexual couples to me. In fact when he found out the harm that caused same sex couples, *he changed his mind.*

Yes, sounds like he was totally motivated by mean-spirited sadism. Not, say, ignorance and prejudice that was eventually overwhelmed by education and love for his daughter.

We don't need these straw man arguments to tear down the character of our opponents. Their position is flawed enough without inventing polarized rationales that make them out to be purely motivated by the desire to ruin our lives. That's ridiculous and rather self-centered, TBH.

This kind of demonization insults and drives away people who might otherwise be turned into allies, ala Mayor Sanders. It's very good at rallying the troops and raising blood pressure, but it doesn't help in the long run.
148. Rightthingtodo TX | February 10, 2010 at 11:46 am

it's not just the lgbt community…er…um….oh yeah "bellyaching"…nice spin by jorge there…about having all relationships recognized for economic purposes…it's all people who know what concepts like (i'll spell slowly for jorge's sake) F-R-E-E-D-O-M and E-Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y actually mean…that as soon as these concepts and constructs rely on a narrow view of what's "normal", they cease to exhibit the characteristics of their underlying meaning

being gay is just as normal as anything just not as statistically prevalent…eesh…someone buy jorge a dictionary
149. Kay Moore | February 10, 2010 at 12:48 pm

@ATTENTION!
"something supportive, loving and non-argumentative"? Felyx, I understand and respect your call for civility but in context, it doesn't seem like sympathy and measured conversation is at all important to you. Not that I'm at all bothered by incivility generally (it's always good for a laugh when someone's hair trigger goes off and they start ranting at me) but a call for civility sounds much more serious when directed at the uncivil.
150. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 12:59 pm

Felyx talking too a wall using civility is like talking to an old man who died after taking viagra….he doesn't hear you, is as hard as a rock, has no substance, the measure of conversation is one sided and non existent.
151. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:08 pm

Ronnie, this is just too rich for me to resist, so…….ROWR! Dis I just hear the cat go through here? LOL
152. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:08 pm

Sorry, that was supposed to read "Did I just hear the cat go through here? LOL"
153. Felyx | February 10, 2010 at 1:13 pm

Ronnie, Kay had an opportunity to shine with grace and show support for repealing prejudical hate for the sake of children. The rest of us here have shown our hearts for our cause. I had hope that outside of the issue she would done something redeeming to show we have common ground. But, she spoke for herself, you be the judge.
154. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 1:21 pm

Sup dopty-daddy and Felyx…like I said this Betch has got swagger and nobody can swash like me…and yes Felyx but apparently that wall is just to dense to comprehend much like trying to comprehend what ever the heck is going on in the world of teletubbies….yeah?
155. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:23 pm

Thank you, LLB. You have also given me the one for mine. This is beautiful.Just like you.
156. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:29 pm

Earth to Team George–"normal" is only a setting on your dishwasher!
157. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:41 pm

You did it again. I finally got IE to quit acting like it was angry at me, and finally got to see this video! I love it!
158. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:45 pm

Yes, and Ronnie, if you know where I can find a complete set of TeleTubbies, let me know. Preferably at least the same height as Ken.
159. David Kimble | February 10, 2010 at 1:46 pm

oops, forgot my manners, please tell her thank you – also hope she has many more birthdays!
160. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:48 pm

But Team Kay, how long do you think tht will last? How long before people begin to wake up and smell the coffe, before people begin to wake up and think for themselves rather than merely following Dobson, Palin, Limburger, and their ilk blindly into hell?
161. Morrigoon | February 10, 2010 at 1:51 pm

Not "heterosexuals". "Haters."

Please don't forget those heterosexuals who have stood by you, supported you, campaigned for your rights… don't lump us with the small-minded idiots that passed this cr@p just because we all happen to favor the opposite sex.
162. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:52 pm

No, the sickening social experiment is letting people like you live wo give even more reason to support abortion.
163. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 1:58 pm

Actually, the burden of proof is on you, TG. And you have none to offer, other than fear, hatred, superstition, and mistranslated quotes from a book that is too often taken in a totally literal context without consideration for the culture and era in which it was written, a book that has been used to subjugate, harass, torure, and even kill those who are seen as "the other."
164. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:08 pm

Maybe when the best part of waking up is actually Foldgers in your cup…dopty-daddy….LOL…..I couldn't help myself……..<3…Ronnie
165. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:10 pm

I will David K….thank you……<3…Ronnie
166. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:12 pm

LMAO!….I'm glad you love it…….<3…Ronnie
167. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:13 pm

Wait….dopty-daddy was that to me or LLB?
168. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:16 pm

Maybe ebay….but I'll keep a look out for you…..<3…Ronnie
169. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 2:28 pm

Ronnie, if you are asking about the comment about Internet Explorer finally not acting as if it is angry at me, that one is to you about the Yes on Prop Str8! Took all of the other sides arguments and turned them around to show them how foolish they are! Love it! BZ and I have been in stitches over that one. You did good, son! Real good!
170. Richard Walter (soon | February 10, 2010 at 2:32 pm

Ronnie @ #69. Thanks. And don't forget what I said on another thread about your clothing line and the menswear. I am not joking.
171. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:38 pm

Lol… thank you again and I'm glad you enjoyed that video…..I have watched it like 20 times since I found it…<3…your dopty-son…Ronnie
172. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 2:42 pm

I most def…will not forget…..<3…Ronnie
173. Morrigoon | February 10, 2010 at 2:53 pm

I wrote a great response to this video, but went WAY over the character count, so I'm going to post it here instead:

"This is an excellent video, you should be very proud of yourself.

Those of us who are straight-but-not-narrow need to take a stand in favor of equal marriage, and be more vocal about it.

I, for one, feel that my straight marriage is more threatened by the h8ers attempts to create alternatives to marriage, than it could ever be by extending marriage to more committed couples.

What happens once you create something called civil unions? Some straight guy comes along and says "Hey, I want something that's not quite marriage and you can't discriminate against me so give me a civil union instead". Then more not-quite-committed people start doing it, next thing you know, fewer people are getting actually married,

OR

This continues to be fought (and make no mistake this fight will continue, over and over, every election and/or court cycle, until equal rights are granted because there's no way a group that gained rights and then lost them is going to stop until their rights are restored), and eventually the atheists get their way and nobody's marriage gets to be called marriage, so we all lose marriage and have to settle for civil unions,

OR

We could equalize marriage for everyone, with no halfsies alternatives. You are either married, or you aren't. The sanctity of all our marriages is confirmed by equal access to it.

Man, I've been trying for ages to find a way to put that all into words. I don't want a civil union, I want to be MARRIED. I don't expect anyone else to settle for something I wouldn't settle for. Separate marriages are no better than separate drinking fountains."
174. Kay Moore | February 10, 2010 at 4:57 pm

Oh, those that are following Dobson, Palin, and the other mooks are going to keep following them wherever they eventually end up but the majority don't follow the flavor-of-the-week preachers of whatever doctrine. Because most people don't just wander around doing exactly what they're told, when they awaken, they're most likely to be people who choose what to think and then choose someone who sounds like they agree rather than being told what to think and staying with that. But they can be easily irritated which is why Measure 36 passed: the typically liberal do-whatever-you-want keep-Portland-weird Oregonian got annoyed enough with the antics of certain county commissioners to vote for something that'd just make the entire issue go away and the M36 advocates made their genius idea sound more like a "vote for this and the headache goes away" initiative than the alternative. I have no illusions about the popularity of the "anti-equality" set in Oregon so a majority of Oregon voters throwing in with them has to be explained by something other than agreement or deception.
175. Ronnie | February 10, 2010 at 11:17 pm

Oh that took long enough dopty-daddy, it appears somebody need to do a little research before they posted so that they could look like they are soooooo smart…but we really know that they are only achieving the good of looking like an @$$ while waiting until a time when most people would be asleep to insult, harass, attack,and attempt to demean them.

Who use too to use tactics like that? You guessed it The Triple K, The Swatzies, and Wal-mart.!….ahhhh!!!!!!

Most people make decisions based on fear or lack of knowledge (proven in court read the transcripts). Most people who follow religions so unknowingly wind up dead(Jim Jones) or looking like pod people(those stupid gospel CD commercials)…and since when did a law based on discrimination made somebody go away…the Gays just disappeared and shut up after 36(do you believe in magic)?….. Well in the real world that would be a resounding NO!!!!

I have no illusions of what the anti-equality bigots really want…..They want to re-criminalize homosexuality, murder and bash LGBT without repercussions, force them us into following a single religious doctrine(despite freedom of religion) and shut people up both LGBT and straight…..but that is laughable…..good luck trying to shut up over 2 million people…..If the swatzies would have come for me in the night they would have been on the receiving end of death….but what do I know…I'm just a 25yo Gay man who is being an extremist while not allowing the government to take my money and still tell me no…..Boston Tea Party anyone?….I've got crumpets made of crow……mmmmm!!!!
176. Paul N | February 13, 2010 at 4:19 am

"…and eventually the atheists get their way and nobody’s marriage gets to be called marriage…"

Your accusation that atheists are trying to take marriage away from everybody is ridiculious. I am a gay atheist, and I want everyone to be able to get married. Every atheist I know also supports gay marriage.

Civil marriage is a civil right. Any religious ceremony that folks may want to have along with civil marriage is up to them. Do not confuse the church ceremony with civil marriage. A church ceremony is simply that…a ceremony. Also, don't confuse any dislike of the ceremony by some atheists as a dislike of civil marriage.

Be careful not to fall into the simplistic trap that the h8ers have fallen into…that of clumping together varied individuals who happen to share a common point of view and then demonizing them and describing them in an overly simplistic (and usually wrong) manner. It has no effect on those you attack, but makes you look like a fool. And most of us are familiar with the saying, "it is far better to be thought a fool and say nothing, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

Seriously though, I assume that you are an intelligent caring person who would not have said such a thing had you stopped a moment to think about what you were saying and its effect on others.
177. Richard Walter (soon | February 13, 2010 at 5:37 am

Actually,Paul, I think Morrigoon is trying to make a point about what the Prop Hers are doing to wreck marriage by going to extremes. He is trying to point out that those who only wantus to have CU's and DP's will create a situation wherein those who are not as committed to their relatinships will ask for civil unions istaed of marriage, and then when marriage falls apart, the Prop h8ers will try to blame the atheists. And I agree with what Morrigoon is saying. If the Prop h8ers win, and we get stuck with CU' and DP's, THEY (the Prop h8ers) will try to blame the atheists for the disintegration of marriage. I hate to say it, but if we win, once they decide to leave the LGBTQQI community alone,the next group they go after ill either be the Muslims or the Atheists.

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