Prop 8 on trial: Justice and equality in the age of the Internet

January 23, 2010

By Rick Jacobs

[Cross-posted from the Huffington Post]

History is being made in California this month, as hundreds of thousands of lesbians and gay men, their friends, families and allies around the world crowd into what has become a virtual courtroom.

I have been sitting in the courtroom from the opening arguments, but I was expecting to simply observe, absorb and comment. Instead, I am in the overflow room at the Courthouse — watching what would have been seen on YouTube by millions — and recording one of the key moments in gay civil rights history on the Courage Campaign Institute’s “Prop 8 Trial Tracker” web site that is providing wall-to-wall coverage of the trial.

While our Constitution guarantees access to a fair and open trial, the modern definition of access is being rapidly expanded as a federal court in San Francisco hears a challenge to Proposition 8, the California initiative that stripped equal marriage rights from the state’s lesbian and gay families in 2008.

The Internet is giving the world the chance to experience this trial in real time, something our Supreme Court did not want to allow via television. From Courage’s Trial Tracker site to Karen Ocamb’s LGBT.POV, FireDogLake, Pam’s House Blend and many other sites, the news about the trial is spreading like wildfire online.

The online rush to witness equal rights being put on trial began when U.S. District Court Judge Vaughn Walker asked for public comment on his decision to allow video access to the proceedings. The response was overwhelmingly in favor of televising the trial, with more than 138,000 supportive online petition signatures generated in just three days by the Courage Campaign Institute and CREDO Action, compared to a mere 32 for the opposition. This is a testament to the marriage equality movement’s desire to be out and open, while the opposition seeks to hide — ironically — in its own closet of homophobia.

Judge Walker’s decision to allow public video access was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court. But in his dissenting opinion to the majority’s 5-4 decision banning video from the trial, Justice Stephen Breyer twice cited the 138,248 online signatures submitted on paper — making clear that the public had weighed in and that the nation’s interests would be best served if the trial was available for public participation.

What is remarkable is that this may be the first time an online organizing campaign of this nature has been cited in a Supreme Court decision.

Despite the decision, the public demand to witness our rights on trial could not be unplugged. The Prop8TrialTracker.com live blog — which Courage set up using a mobile broadband device in the courtroom overflow area — has generated nearly 1 million views [ED NOTE: now more than 1.1 million views] and more than 7,000 comments [ED NOTE: now more than 10,000 comments] since launching on January 11.

We initially set up this trial-tracking web site to allow the public to “view” the trial when video access was in limbo. Now, our live blog is sparking a powerful public catharsis across the nation, with readers offering their own testimony to the personal consequences of being denied the right and responsibility of marriage. Just as the plaintiffs’ stories are opening hearts and minds, thousands of people are coming out and telling their stories online, with powerful effect.

This window to justice, once thrown open, is now offering the entire nation the chance to participate in the trial. Many hundreds of comments are being left every day on our blog, with readers amplifying the expert testimony being given in the courtroom with their own responses as well as forming a unique community of “Trial Trackers” in the threads.

We obviously hope Judge Walker reads this testimony for justice and equality being offered every day by the millions who cannot be present at the trial.

At its core, our system of justice also allows us “our day in court” — the power to be heard and to confront our accusers. That’s what is happening right now in California. Millions of people have the chance to be heard as their rights — and indeed basic American values of justice and fair treatment for all — are on trial.

They are speaking out because they believe that it is much harder to deny a right in the abstract than it is in the flesh. It is one thing to say that marriage should be between a man and a woman. It is something different, and much more difficult, to stand before loving, committed same-sex couples and tell them they are less equal than straight couples.

This is, I believe, one of the primary reasons the anti-gay side sees its witness list shrinking by the minute. Truth thrives when you shine a light on it and lies, misinformation and bigotry shrink and slink away when exposed.

We can ask ourselves what the outcome may have been in other trials if only there was this level of participation, but can you imagine?

During the legal proceedings leading up to the Proposition 8 trial, much was made of the power of the Internet to allow Californians to watch justice at work. While those were good arguments, we are discovering that perhaps the most important use of the Internet is the power it gives both the judiciary and the public to see how this one case effects so many Americans in our everyday lives.

Filed under: Community/Meta,Televising,Trial analysis

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37 Comments Leave a Comment

  • 1. Warner  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:12 am

    Thank you for all your efforts. It really means alot to me to know that you guys are there, giving us vital glimpses into what is happening in the courtroom. This trial, and the ones that will follow have a profound impact on my future, as it does the futures of everyone here. SCOTUS might want to protect intolerence by trying to keep the truth of this trial from coming out, but isgood to know there are people who are working tirelessly and ceaselessly to ensure we are not cut out of a case that seeks to overide bigottry.

  • 2. abbe  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:24 am

    Link to Monday's post is broken!

    I know a lot of people who aren't interested in this trial. They think it's a waste of time and resources because it will just go through appeal after appeal, etc, or they just don't think it's a big deal.

    That's why I'm so grateful for this site!

  • 3. couragecampaign  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:34 am

    Thanks abbe

    It's now fixed.

    -Julia

  • 4. tech guy  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:35 am

    Link to Monday’s post is broken!

    Monday, January 18 was MLKJ holiday. I don't believe there were any posts.

  • 5. Ryan Blazer  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:37 am

    The people who are not "interested" are the ones the decision does not affect, i.e. heterosexuals.

    I mean even the heterosexuals who voted No on 8 said what does gay marriage have to do with my heterosexual marriage?

    We have to keep the word out as this case inevitably will be a landmark decision.

    Love,
    Ryan

    P.S. Thank you CC & Rick!

  • 6. couragecampaign  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:43 am

    Actually there were a few, including the link that Julia just corrected.

    – Eden w/ Courage

  • 7. Ann S.  |  January 23, 2010 at 5:57 am

    I know you weren't speaking of ALL heterosexuals, because I'm one of the many allies who is here and extremely interested. Many of us allies are driven by caring about the rights of a friend or loved one, or just because it's the right thing to do.

    I talk about this case to my family and friends all the time. Everyone is interested, but that's my circle. Frankly, I have a hard time being friends with anyone who could vote Yes on 8.

    Love,
    Ann

  • 8. The Werewolf Prophet  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:10 am

    IANAL, but …

    "appeal after appeal"

    There are only two appeals possible in this case: from Judge Walker's District Court to the (VERY liberal) Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and from there to the Supreme Court (SCOTUS).

    If we win at the District level (which seems likely to me), we'll probably win in the Ninth Circuit because it's such a liberal court. SCOTUS could then decline the case, leaving the Ninth Circuit's decision intact, or they could hear it, at which point the outcome is anybody's guess. Kennedy would be the swing vote, again.

  • 9. Caleb  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:22 am

    "more than 138,000 supportive online petition signatures generated in just three days by the Courage Campaign Institute and CREDO Action, compared to a mere 32 for the opposition."

    Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but OUR side should be really careful adopting the stance that numbers count.

    138,000 people saying the same thing is ONE argument. Judges weigh the validity of arguments, not the number of voices for or against them.

    In this fight, we're (rightly) asking the court to overturn a law that has majority support. We're asking to be protected as a minority.

    To do that, while simultaneously touting the 138,000:32 ratio as a reason to allow the trial to be televised isn't logical.

    Courts shouldn't make decisions based on popular opinion. Using popular opinion to support arguments on our side, while dismissing popular opinion when it supports the other side, is hypocritical.

  • 10. Caleb  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:33 am

    To continue this line of reasoning:

    Rather than concentrating on getting a crapload of signatures that, in essence, only repeat one single argument in favor of broadcasting the trial… we should instead concentrate on putting forth a broad range of UNIQUE arguments to be weighed on their merit (instead of their popularity).

    Populist petitions are of little or no use in court. It's the quality, not quantity, that counts.

  • 11. DonM  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:40 am

    Well, sort of….

    But isn't this whole trial because a majority voted to take AWAY constitutional (CA) rights whereas the 138,000 were a "vote" to RETAIN the constitutional right to observe a trial.

    Seems like different sides of the coin to me.

  • 12. Dave  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:43 am

    Thank you Courage Campaign for the invaluable work you are doing here.

    I just got a chance to read some more of the posts in the "Introduce Yourself" blog from several days ago. I can't help but think that if every Judge in the country were to read the comments there and contrast them to the comments that he/she would find on the PM or NOM website, all rulings would go our way. Of course that implies all Judges are truly impartial, and sadly that isn't the case.

    One suggestion for the website. Maybe it's just me but I'm having problems finding posts from previous days. Is there a way you could put a "table of contents" with links to the myriad of posts over the past 10 days?

    Thanks again for what you are doing!

  • 13. Caleb  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:45 am

    In a court of law, you don't get to "vote" to do or not do something.

    That's the whole point of having the judicial branch of the government act as a balance against the legislative branch.

  • 14. couragecampaign  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:48 am

    Hi Dave.

    Thanks for the kind words.

    If you look on the right hand column there is a list of categories. You can use the links there to navigate by blog post type, for example all of the liveblogs are in one page, as are the daily summaries.

    I hope that helps.

    -Julia

  • 15. Carol  |  January 23, 2010 at 6:59 am

    Many thanks to Rick, Brian, CC and others for the phenomenal work you are putting into this, all to deliver on our constitutional right of a fair and open trial. So far, I think Judge Walker is delivering the "fair" part, and as I understand the SCOTUS ruling, they may not have foreclosed the possibility of airing the trial itself after it is over. After all, Tam has already testified on the plaintiffs' case, and it appears defendants have only 1 or 2 experts/professional witnesses. So the irremediable harm the defendants claimed to fear has not materialized. I hope our side will return to SCOTUS to press our case for openness. We only have to tip 1 justice who remembers his oath to uphold the Constitution.

    And Rick, you are so right about the power of the Internet!

    Love,
    Carol

  • 16. michael  |  January 23, 2010 at 7:12 am

    Dear Courage Campaign,
    As a native Californian I am deeply involved in this case. I have been on this site daily crying, laughing and sharing. This case has the power to change so many of the discriminatory Laws that are stacked against us from sea to shining sea. Your work and dedication to open this up to all of us is truly something that I thank each of you for doing. Keep up the great work.

    The community that you helped create here is wonderful. Those of us that feel all alone with all of these things or outside looking in have been able to relate to each other and share our stories. I think of all the youths that can now read for themselves that all the truths that have been exposed, the feelings and mistreatment that they suffer daily, is shared by a greater community then they could have possibly imagined! It lifts my spirit to think of some boy or girl somewhere having this resource available to them. This helps so many people that it is frankly a Godsend.

    To all of our Heterosexual allies I am deeply in your debt for helping me to realize that not everyone feels the disgust and hatred that is usually the case from the general population. The conversations on this board help so much to start the healing process that some of us so desperately needed. While bringing up painful memories from the past is hard, dealing with them all armored with the truth makes it much easier.

    Love and Thanks,
    M.

  • 17. Jeff  |  January 23, 2010 at 7:17 am

    My boyfriend poo-poos my obsession with this,however this is an historic trial. Unfortunately it will go to the US Supreme Court, which shocked many of us by allowing corporations to fund political campaigns. Outrage, like I read someone say,"welcome to California, brought to you by Chevron". I'm sure at the US Supreme level it will be shot down and set us back 30 years.
    These justices need to do what is expected, apply constitution,bill of rights, and not vote their ideological views. I'm sure our forefathers are turning in their grave over these things. I'm sure Clarence Thomas and Alito would have a different take when it affected "their" minority status.

  • 18. Ronnie  |  January 23, 2010 at 7:21 am

    Ok I just found this article of nj.com and it is about this case so I thought I would post in:

    Film focuses on Mormon role in gay marriage ban

    1/23/2010, 2:41 p.m. EST
    JENNIFER DOBNER
    The Associated Press
    (AP) — PARK CITY, Utah – The Utah-based Mormon church plays a starring role in a new Sundance Film Festival documentary about the 2008 ballot initiative that banned gay marriage in California.

    "8: The Mormon Proposition," premieres Sunday. The film contends that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints built on decades of anti-gay teachings to justify its political activism and was the driving force behind the coalition that helped pass Proposition 8.

    In telling the story, filmmaker Reed Cowan-himself a gay Mormon-draws from internal church documents, public campaign finance reports, statements from church leaders and first-person accounts from gay Mormons and their family members.

    In a statement, church officials say the film's online materials about the faith lack accuracy.

    I guess prop Ha8te really can't hide everything..LMAO!

  • 19. becca  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:03 am

    I'm heterosexual, My kids seem to be so. Yet this trial affects me in other ways. My marriage won't be diminished by SS marriage – if anything, it will be enhanced because "no one is truly free until everyone is." If the religious right wins this one, will teaching of evolution be next? they're already trying to change history by selective teaching (or outright lying about) history in Texas.

  • 20. michael  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:13 am

    Considering we, America, are supposed to be the leaders in the International Community I am not convinced the SCOTUS will want to continue how we are seen around the globe. Countries around the world are waiting, just as we are, for America to fulfill its obligations to it's GLBT citizens. The fact that we are so involved in the fight to advance freedoms in other countries while we don't have it ourselves at home is an embarrassing position to be seen in clearly from other more advanced nations. I do not think that those conservative justices will want to be viewed and remembered for turning its back on Justice. This case will go into the History books and any who stand in the way of applying our laws fairly and equally will be remembered forever. Their entire legacy will be judged with this decision. I am sure that they realized this.

  • 21. Dave  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:16 am

    I appreciate the list of categories, but I was thinking more of a category entitled "table of contents" that has a chronological list of all the Post Titles with links to each.

    For instance, I spent quite a while just trying to find the "Introduce Yourself" thread. I think I had to find it through a link within a link, because I knew it was here somewhere. I find this particular post particularly powerful and someone who just started reading the website wouldn't know about it.

    I'm not complaining! I know you folks are running as fast as you can and that it takes a lot of effort to make websites work effectively. And thank you again for what you are doing. I hope that when you all have a chance to come up for air, perhaps you can clean up everything a little bit and leave this TrialTracker website up for a while. As somebody said, there may be some young person who stumbles upon this website and finds encouragement that he wasn't able to find in his community.

    Dave

  • 22. Marlene Bomer  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:25 am

    Becca — The religious reicht in all of its myriad forms throughout history has *always* been against *any* advancement in technology.

    There were those who opposed Gutenberg's movable type, which allowed books to be mass produced, because it was the start of spreading knowledge outside of the control of an elite cabal of clerics.

    There were those who opposed Galileo's "optik stick" and the discoveries he made, because it ran against what an elite cabal of clerics claimed was the truth.

    These same self-appointed experts threatened to excommunicate anyone to dared oppose their "truth" which forced early astronomers to hide their discoveries as "dreams" and "visions".

    There were those who opposed the first heart transplant, because there were some self-appointed "experts" who still claimed the soul resided in the heart — which turned out to be a lie. However, there have been some legitimate examples of where people's habits and tastes change to their donors after receiving an organ transplant.

    There were those who opposed any research into sexuality, because it put to task their longstanding beliefs that those who weren't "normal" in their sexual orientation were recruited as children.

    The list goes on and on, Becca…

  • 23. SF Bay  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:25 am

    I saw the interview with the film makers and narrorators this morning too. It's about time the light of day shines on that awful church. My wife (we're one of the 18,000) was raised Mormon and knows first hand the hatred that comes from that religion.

    I feel they have finally way over played their hand and now it's going to get bit – HARD.

  • 24. Joshua  |  January 23, 2010 at 9:21 am

    You should make a database where people can submit their own stories or prejudice/stigma/discrimination, to be submitted in future cases as evidence (or just to increase awareness).

    We can't let the right wing debunk our witnesses on the grounds that they hold a single viewpoint, and are not a representative sample of the population (as they tried to in this case, with one of our witnesses!).

  • 25. Woody  |  January 23, 2010 at 9:39 am

    I too was raised Mormon. Very few understand the self-loathing that instilled in me. To this day, I'm constantly battling with that feeling that I'm just not as good as other people at anything: Graduating from college cum laude was just a fluke. Being called "the smartest person they know" by many friends is just that they don't really know how stupid I am. And if somebody thinks I'm cute or handsome, well, they must be drunk.

    If earnest prayer and an absolute desire are all it takes to change from homosexual to heterosexual, then I'd have done it easily when I was 14 and preparing to go on my first trip to the Temple. I *knew* I was attracted to other guys (but didn't know it was called 'gay'), and I knew that I'd be letting down my family, my church, and God if I didn't change, and went to the temple as a homosexual. There were many, many nights I locked myself in my room and prayed. I even marked a date on my calender when I would leave those feelings behind–I marked that day, "The Change." To my great and utter disappointment, nothing whatsoever changed.

    As the date of the trip approached, I had my interview with the bishop but I don't recall many questions about sex–maybe he thought I was to young to ask that question, or maybe I've just blocked it all out. I only remember sitting in his office, and just a snippet of that. I was really stuck–lie to the bishop, or admit that I was not worthy, and shame myself and my family. I lied, and hoped God would forgive me.

    Somehow, on the way from home through Atlanta, a feeling of peace came over me: I'd make it through. After I got back from what I thought was a great trip (seeing the World's Fair in Knoxville, my first trip through Washington DC, and the beauty of upstate New York) I went to church a while longer, then just stopped going.

    The scars were still there, though. I still dreamed of meeting a man I could love forever, and who would love me the same way. I still felt horrible about it, felt that I was worthless, dirty, "other."

    Finally, in college, I came out to my roommate (who I had a crush on). He surprised me by telling me he was gay, too. Finally, I wasn't alone! But the damage was done. My self esteem was shattered. In college, with my new gay friends, I began picking up the pieces. Sadly, though, there are many that are probably lost forever, and even today, age 42, I feel less than everyone else, including my dearest gay friends.

    To the leadership of the LDS church, I say this: Look at what you are doing to your young members. Is this what God and Jesus Christ would want you to do to them?

  • 26. becca  |  January 23, 2010 at 11:05 am

    oh, I know, Marlene – it's just that it's so *stupid*. but some people will find any excuse to hate. And wasn't it Martin Luther who said something to the effect that reason was the enemy of faith?

  • 27. Richard  |  January 23, 2010 at 11:46 am

    Oh, I just love this. You have just said, in this piece, what I and my husband have said all along. No we are not yet LEGALLY married, but he is my husband nonetheless. What really hurts us in so many ways here in our area is that we are coming up against more opposition from the LGBT "community here in Cumberland County, North Carolina, than we do even from the heterosexual community. For some reason, the LGBT's here feel they will be safer if they are "in the closet." therefore, we have more heterosexual friends than we do LGBT. What is so bad about this whole thing is that everyone in this area knows who the LGBT's are, so while there are so many who think they are safe, and closeted, they are neither. All they are doing is interrupting progress by downsizing our community through their lack of unity.

  • 28. activecitizen54  |  January 23, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Healing begins with acceptance of the God-Given attributes of Human Sexuality as God, Nature, Nurture or Nothing but evolution Intended.
    I thank my Paternal Grandmother, an animist, an Iroquois Native American for the grace, patience, recognition and acceptance that allowed me to survive the unrelenting hate directed at me from early childhood through my teens when I finally bloodied enough noses and beat enough bullies to become the protector of my Gay and Lesbian peers through High School. My Grandmother was clear that my being Gay was a gift. My Grandmother brought me to understand just how unique, special and blessed I am for being this human who now at 55 has a Gay Son and a Not-Gay son. My Grandmother brought me to understand that there is a reason I am who I am and no one has power to take that from me.
    The Miracle of this internet site, the family that has grown from this internet site and the blessings of truth, dignity and honor that are displayed through the posting here are a balm to my soul and a true salvation in life.
    Thank you all.

  • 29. Richard  |  January 23, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    And CC, please tell me who I need to talk to about compiling all of this into a book. We need this to be done so that it is not lost forever once the site is taken down. I don't care how long it takes me to finish it, nor do I care how many LightScribe CD's it takes me to get the finished product to you for apporval, I feel that I owe this to everyone who has been involved in this historic moment. Please get in touch with me about this.

  • 30. Ann S.  |  January 23, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    Caleb, I thought that the number of votes was being used as evidence that there had been sufficient time for public comment, not as a factor to sway the Justices in voting for one side or the other.

  • 31. Richard W. Fitch  |  January 23, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Richard – If you can accomplish the preservation of the trial and the conversation surrounding it, you should be elevated to sainthood! This is unquestionably the most important legal battle LGBT have faced so far. And again my sincere thanks to CC, Prop8 Tracker and all those taking part in this historic happening.
    Love to all!
    Richard

  • 32. Tim  |  January 23, 2010 at 7:32 pm

    Wow Caleb! Im still upset that this trial is not being televised, but I completely get your point. Thank you!!

  • 33. Tim  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    Richard! I beg of you! Some how get all these stories to a secure place and make sure they get published. I hope you have seen the thread "Introduce your self".It made me laugh and cry! I feel without pictures or Television this web sight has put faces to the many stories that have been told here, mine included!
    Courage campaign: Please make sure it happens.
    I personally release any of my comments( and my name, Tim Church) to public view! If you agree say so by adding "Share" to the end of your post. By doing so you agree to let your storie to be told.Or "No' if you wish not to be included in future publications. I'm not a lawer, but does that cover liability?
    Now if we could somehow get to the post I wrote previously to add "share". Is there a way?

  • 34. Tim  |  January 23, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    I should have proof read the entire thing before I clicked on "Submit'. I understand the spelling errors that I made.Thanks for understanding. LOL The TIM man. If only I had a brain. LOL

  • 35. Richard  |  January 23, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    Thank you, Tim, for being willing to have your comments included. Yes, I know about the thread "Please Introduce Yourself." I, too, have shed many a tear while reading through the posts. Especially when I see the comments from our straight allies who have such strong feelings about our right to marriage equality, and who have such valid reasons to join us in this fight to reveal the insanity and the lies that are being used to oppress us. And anyone who wants to have their comments included in the book can go to my Facebook page. Richard Walter. I will try to post the link shortly. And thank you again, everyone for this site. From Courage Campaign to all the trial livebloggers to the commentators to the family I have found here that has expanded my own. You guys and gals are just TOO AWESOME FOR WORDS ALONE!

  • 36. Anne  |  January 24, 2010 at 12:39 am

    Um, I'm heterosexual and I'm following this case avidly. Its the civil rights case of our time. I gave money to no on 8 and held rallies for same sex marriage.

    I know all the benefits I got because I could marry my spouse. I think it's an outrage that same sex couples are denied them.

    The people I hang out with (straight or LGBT) all care about this case. I am appalled at the lack of coverage in the mainstream media – even the SF Chronicle hasn't been very good about it. Sure am glad for Courage Campaign and Firedog Lake (the two sites I hang out on).

    Reminds me – time to donate some more money to Courage Campaign!

    Love, Anne

    (ps – personally, I prefer reading things to watching videos, so I'm much happier with this site than I would have been with YouTube videos! but I do understand for most people, the videos would have been better…)

  • 37. Elizabeth  |  January 24, 2010 at 4:37 am

    Of course D's plan on success of appeal to SCOTUS. Their only hope – obfuscate and attempt to elicit contradictory testimony from P's witnesses. In the long run, despite the inadequacy of the D’s positions and their mediocre (being charitable in the evaluation) legal team this all going to initially hinge upon how well written and supported by evidence Judge Walker’s original opinion is. P’s briefs should make that an easy task. 9th CCA will uphold if it is. Clarence and Nino will then turn over every rock possible to remand as it currently appears very, very unlikely to find clearly reversible error. So D’s creating a voluminous record may well be good strategy as Nino at least will have bright clerks and Alito and Roberts will probably allow many amicus briefs (likely funded by KofC and LDS). After remand by SCOTUS in several years (assuming they even take it) case will probably fade away as in ten years natural aging process will put this all to rest absent coup by GB and the tea-baggers. Prop 8 remand does not scare me but the latter event currently does. E.g., Brown, Bunning, DeMint, Coburn and Palin are all very, very popular in the
    Heartland" where hearts are very hard to change based on reason and fairness as opposed to "faith". Bing scripture rifle scopes – now that is scary. Meanwhile, Pugno and Gallagher are financially set for life.

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