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	<title>Comments on: An Explosive Afternoon: LDS Church</title>
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	<description>Perry v. Schwarzenegger: Tracking the right-wing</description>
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		<title>By: Prop. 8 Smoking Guns? - Gay Vantage</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201391</link>
		<dc:creator>Prop. 8 Smoking Guns? - Gay Vantage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201391</guid>
		<description>[...] Julia Rosen over at Prop8 Trial Tracker says: Get that? The LDS Church intentionally worked to hide behind the scenes to disguise their involvement in the public realm. The LDS Church is well aware that the general public does not have the most favorable opinion of them. Attention on their involvement could have hurt their cause, namely passing Prop 8. [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Julia Rosen over at Prop8 Trial Tracker says: Get that? The LDS Church intentionally worked to hide behind the scenes to disguise their involvement in the public realm. The LDS Church is well aware that the general public does not have the most favorable opinion of them. Attention on their involvement could have hurt their cause, namely passing Prop 8. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hanford Searl Jr.</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201390</link>
		<dc:creator>Hanford Searl Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201390</guid>
		<description>... As a FORMER Mormon, excommunicated for being gay after 15-yrs. membership, an honorable mission &amp; a BYU grad in Broadcast Journalism (just named to &quot;Who&#039;s Who in America - in the Media&quot; for thee 3rd. consectuive yr.!), I can safely say: &quot;NOT SURPRISING!!!&quot; 
 
- Experienced the annual witch hunts for gay students at the Y in the Spring-of-&#039;69, when I joined the LDS Church. Personally knew a fellow Bflo., NY student, who went through church-sanctioned electric shock therapy, an encouraged temple marriage (by then Pres. Spencer W. Kimball), became a temple work, divorced &amp; trried to kill himself!!! 
 
... The Mormon Church STILL endorses electric shock therapy of gay members, only now off-BYU&#039;s-campus due to law suits! Thank GODDESS for-the-LAW!!! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; As a FORMER Mormon, excommunicated for being gay after 15-yrs. membership, an honorable mission &amp; a BYU grad in Broadcast Journalism (just named to &quot;Who&#039;s Who in America &#8211; in the Media&quot; for thee 3rd. consectuive yr.!), I can safely say: &quot;NOT SURPRISING!!!&quot; </p>
<p>- Experienced the annual witch hunts for gay students at the Y in the Spring-of-&#039;69, when I joined the LDS Church. Personally knew a fellow Bflo., NY student, who went through church-sanctioned electric shock therapy, an encouraged temple marriage (by then Pres. Spencer W. Kimball), became a temple work, divorced &amp; trried to kill himself!!! </p>
<p>&#8230; The Mormon Church STILL endorses electric shock therapy of gay members, only now off-BYU&#039;s-campus due to law suits! Thank GODDESS for-the-LAW!!!</p>
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		<title>By: When Mormons Mobilize: Anti-Gay Marriage Prop. 8 Effort ‘Outed’? &#171; roger hollander</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201389</link>
		<dc:creator>When Mormons Mobilize: Anti-Gay Marriage Prop. 8 Effort ‘Outed’? &#171; roger hollander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201389</guid>
		<description>[...] the California-based Courage Campaign latched onto the phrase “plausible deniability” as an “explosive” indictment of the Mormon Church’s allegedly behind-the-scenes relationship to the Proposition [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the California-based Courage Campaign latched onto the phrase “plausible deniability” as an “explosive” indictment of the Mormon Church’s allegedly behind-the-scenes relationship to the Proposition [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Prop 8 &#8211; The Mormon Proposition Opens at Sundance - God Discussion</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201388</link>
		<dc:creator>Prop 8 &#8211; The Mormon Proposition Opens at Sundance - God Discussion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201388</guid>
		<description>[...] to the trial testimony, the Mormon church did not take the &quot;lead&quot; in campaign efforts. Testimony revealed that the church&#039;s efforts were spearheaded by ProtectMarriage.com in order to create [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the trial testimony, the Mormon church did not take the &quot;lead&quot; in campaign efforts. Testimony revealed that the church&#39;s efforts were spearheaded by ProtectMarriage.com in order to create [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LDS Church supported Prop 8 : PinkNews.co.uk</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201387</link>
		<dc:creator>LDS Church supported Prop 8 : PinkNews.co.uk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 22:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201387</guid>
		<description>[...] Read more&#8230;. Tags: Church Resources, Lds Church, Mormon Church [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read more&#8230;. Tags: Church Resources, Lds Church, Mormon Church [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201386</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 18:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201386</guid>
		<description>all i can say i wish my state isn&#039;t under california supreme court sooner were out of under there the better </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>all i can say i wish my state isn&#039;t under california supreme court sooner were out of under there the better</p>
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		<title>By: Ann S.</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201385</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201385</guid>
		<description>Again, nicely said, Clark. 
 
Love, 
Ann </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, nicely said, Clark. </p>
<p>Love,<br />
Ann</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201384</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201384</guid>
		<description>Also, as for your argument about introducing a second currency and whatnot: even though I reject the fiat currency analogy (and instead only brought it up as an example of something to get mad about, not a comparison, which makes this kind of a straw man, but I think we&#039;ll live through it), I&#039;ll bite for just one short post: 
 
We are not asking for a second currency to sit alongside yours.  In fact, that is what is being offered by your side in the form of CU/DP.  We are asking to use the same currency, and in the same places (e.g., recognized throughout the states).  Love is of unchanging value and infinite reserve, so a fiat of love can never devalue. 
 
You see the relationships as separate, but I see them as the same: people loving each other.  With respect to a loving gay couple, why are you so obsessed with another man&#039;s genitals?  (Low blow, I know, I kid, I kid) 
 
Similarly, I&#039;ll say again, Marriage does not become devalued by people getting married.  That is preposterous.  Marriage is devalued by, if anything, Vegas chapels for drunk strangers, teenagers who had sex once involved in shotgun weddings, game shows where the prize is getting married, most celebrity marriages, and most of all, DIVORCE. 
 
But no one ever wants to initiate a ballot initiative to ban divorce, do they? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, as for your argument about introducing a second currency and whatnot: even though I reject the fiat currency analogy (and instead only brought it up as an example of something to get mad about, not a comparison, which makes this kind of a straw man, but I think we&#039;ll live through it), I&#039;ll bite for just one short post: </p>
<p>We are not asking for a second currency to sit alongside yours.  In fact, that is what is being offered by your side in the form of CU/DP.  We are asking to use the same currency, and in the same places (e.g., recognized throughout the states).  Love is of unchanging value and infinite reserve, so a fiat of love can never devalue. </p>
<p>You see the relationships as separate, but I see them as the same: people loving each other.  With respect to a loving gay couple, why are you so obsessed with another man&#039;s genitals?  (Low blow, I know, I kid, I kid) </p>
<p>Similarly, I&#039;ll say again, Marriage does not become devalued by people getting married.  That is preposterous.  Marriage is devalued by, if anything, Vegas chapels for drunk strangers, teenagers who had sex once involved in shotgun weddings, game shows where the prize is getting married, most celebrity marriages, and most of all, DIVORCE. </p>
<p>But no one ever wants to initiate a ballot initiative to ban divorce, do they?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201383</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201383</guid>
		<description>I hate to say it, but this is almost getting fun.  I&#039;m hoping I didn&#039;t offend anyone with my profanity before, sometimes I can let myself get pretty carried away into the heat of an argument. 
 
I don&#039;t have much time today to type my usual long-winded reply, so I&#039;ll let some others do that for me.  I&#039;ll provide my concise and opposing (as well as &lt;b&gt;extensively&lt;/b&gt; scientifically backed) view as follows: Children need loving, caring, devoted parents (two of &#039;em), but the gender and sexual orientation of these parents is, to the task of parenting, irrelevant. 
 
Here is a study by the American Psychological Association showing that children raised by same-sex &lt;b&gt;couples&lt;/b&gt; fare just as well, in every way, as children raised by heterosexual couples: 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.as...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Here again is the American Psychological Association with their position on Adoption and Co-Parenting of Children by Same-Sex Couples; I encourage you to read it yourself, but I&#039;ll distill it now: Children in these studies turn out best when they have two parents whose relationship with each other and with the child is strong; the gender and sexual orientation of the parents has found to be almost irrelevant.  When is it relevant?  When children raised to be cruel and intolerant tease them mercilessly, or worse. 
[PDF] &lt;a href=&quot;http://archive.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200214.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://archive.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archiv...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
And, so I&#039;m not a one-source pony, here is the American Academy of Pediatric&#039;s opinion on the matter: 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/339&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/...&lt;/a&gt; 
 
And, in order to give a summary of opinions without requiring the reading of several extremely long documents, here is the wikipedia article (linked last as it is just a supplementary resource, not the primary): 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting&lt;/a&gt; 
 
So, with all of that linking and summarizing out of the way, on to the currency analogy.  Let me just open and say that &lt;b&gt;the comparison of love to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fiat currency&lt;/a&gt; is inherently flawed and ridiculous.&lt;/b&gt;  Love, and I mean real love not getting drunk in vegas and ending up married somehow (totally legal and legitimate, by the way) is not a representative currency to be overprinted and devalued, and it is not a resource prized for its rarity, such as Gold, which could also be devalued if the market were flooded. 
 
Love, and by extension, marriage, defies analogy.  Maybe air, as no matter how much you have, it only hurts when someone takes yours away, or gives you a poor substitute.  But even air fails, because I&#039;m sure one could draw some nightmare scenario in which Person A had to take the air away from Person X in order to stay alive, and that this is why straight people must continue to deny gay people marriage. 
 
I&#039;m sorry, I just cannot understand in the least how gay marriage affects you.  Nobody is going to make you get gay married, and nobody is going to dissolve your marriage, yet you rail against the simple truth that two people love each other, two people you have never and will never meet, and that as humans and citizens they have the, as we espouse them, natural right to be married.  That this is even an issue defies rational explanation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to say it, but this is almost getting fun.  I&#039;m hoping I didn&#039;t offend anyone with my profanity before, sometimes I can let myself get pretty carried away into the heat of an argument. </p>
<p>I don&#039;t have much time today to type my usual long-winded reply, so I&#039;ll let some others do that for me.  I&#039;ll provide my concise and opposing (as well as <b>extensively</b> scientifically backed) view as follows: Children need loving, caring, devoted parents (two of &#039;em), but the gender and sexual orientation of these parents is, to the task of parenting, irrelevant. </p>
<p>Here is a study by the American Psychological Association showing that children raised by same-sex <b>couples</b> fare just as well, in every way, as children raised by heterosexual couples:<br />
<a href="http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting.as&#8230;</a> </p>
<p>Here again is the American Psychological Association with their position on Adoption and Co-Parenting of Children by Same-Sex Couples; I encourage you to read it yourself, but I&#039;ll distill it now: Children in these studies turn out best when they have two parents whose relationship with each other and with the child is strong; the gender and sexual orientation of the parents has found to be almost irrelevant.  When is it relevant?  When children raised to be cruel and intolerant tease them mercilessly, or worse.<br />
[PDF] <a href="http://archive.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200214.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://archive.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archiv&#8230;</a> </p>
<p>And, so I&#039;m not a one-source pony, here is the American Academy of Pediatric&#039;s opinion on the matter:<br />
<a href="http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/339" rel="nofollow">http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/&#8230;</a> </p>
<p>And, in order to give a summary of opinions without requiring the reading of several extremely long documents, here is the wikipedia article (linked last as it is just a supplementary resource, not the primary):<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting</a> </p>
<p>So, with all of that linking and summarizing out of the way, on to the currency analogy.  Let me just open and say that <b>the comparison of love to a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency" rel="nofollow">fiat currency</a> is inherently flawed and ridiculous.</b>  Love, and I mean real love not getting drunk in vegas and ending up married somehow (totally legal and legitimate, by the way) is not a representative currency to be overprinted and devalued, and it is not a resource prized for its rarity, such as Gold, which could also be devalued if the market were flooded. </p>
<p>Love, and by extension, marriage, defies analogy.  Maybe air, as no matter how much you have, it only hurts when someone takes yours away, or gives you a poor substitute.  But even air fails, because I&#039;m sure one could draw some nightmare scenario in which Person A had to take the air away from Person X in order to stay alive, and that this is why straight people must continue to deny gay people marriage. </p>
<p>I&#039;m sorry, I just cannot understand in the least how gay marriage affects you.  Nobody is going to make you get gay married, and nobody is going to dissolve your marriage, yet you rail against the simple truth that two people love each other, two people you have never and will never meet, and that as humans and citizens they have the, as we espouse them, natural right to be married.  That this is even an issue defies rational explanation.</p>
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		<title>By: Correction Needed</title>
		<link>http://www.prop8trialtracker.com/2010/01/20/an-explosive-afternoon/#comment-201382</link>
		<dc:creator>Correction Needed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 08:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prop8trialtracker.com/?p=987#comment-201382</guid>
		<description>The &quot;most explosive&quot; language of the email referenced in the article did not come from an email between a leader of the Mormon Church and the Prop 8 campaign as is asserted above.   It&#039;s actually a direct quote from a plaintiff&#039;s expert witness as is revealed by a .  Notice the &quot;leader&quot; who allegedly wrote the explosive email is never identified.  I invite you to correct the record. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &quot;most explosive&quot; language of the email referenced in the article did not come from an email between a leader of the Mormon Church and the Prop 8 campaign as is asserted above.   It&#039;s actually a direct quote from a plaintiff&#039;s expert witness as is revealed by a .  Notice the &quot;leader&quot; who allegedly wrote the explosive email is never identified.  I invite you to correct the record.</p>
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